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#1 2017-03-15 21:28:32

Holdfast
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From: Australia
Registered: 2009-10-15
Posts: 8,161
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Robot Tax - Now

As more and more manual jobs are going by the way side, how are folk supposed to support themselves and their families?

A list of jobs (Example) that are or eventually will be absorbed by Robots:

*Assembly Lines

*Vehicles manufacture of all shapes and sizes

*Butchery

*Food service

*Horticulture, Domestic and Industrial farming.

*Manufacturing of any, metal plastic or composite products.

*Mining industry, above and below ground.

*Aviation.


We need a "Robot-Tax" now!

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#2 2017-03-15 21:57:34

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

Taxes don't protect jobs nor do they increase prosperity. Your solution is not economically sound.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#3 2017-03-15 21:59:22

BuggedOut
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From: New South Wales
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

The purpose of your robot tax is to slow down advancement in this area?

Personally, I'd rather see additional tax on consumption (of all goods, including those produced by robots) with the money spent on retraining displaced workers for job industries of the future.

You can't hold back the tide.  Better off surfing with it.

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#4 2017-03-15 22:12:50

HoldMeTender
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From: Nunya
Registered: 2016-01-06
Posts: 945
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

Nah, we should tax the robots' wages at the maximum rate!

Oh hang on...


All that glitters is not gold...
...but all that is gold glitters!

Windbag in Spandex

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#5 2017-03-15 22:13:53

Jislizard
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From: Australia
Registered: 2011-04-07
Posts: 7,466
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

Most transport will be robots too, haulage and passenger.

Once robots are doing all the jobs there will be no need to work and no need to earn money, everything will be done for us, we can concentrate on the entertainment industry, making YouTube videos and stalking celebrities.

Of course poorer nations will want what we have but with a robot army to defend our borders it won't be a very long war.


Now stacking: World Junk Silver Coins.
Swap your older, worn, dirty fractional silver coins for fiat, .999 rounds or legal tender. 
Individual coins, mixed lots or bulk. 
Not looking for Australian, bent, holed or damaged coins, thanks!

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#6 2017-03-15 22:14:52

Silverthorn
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

I don't know much about tax but wouldn't it be better to get rid of depreciation?

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#7 2017-03-15 22:16:38

House
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

They'd support themselves by adapting to change, upskilling themsleves and realizing that many of the manual labor jobs may not be around much longer. Exactly what they did as we transitioned from the Agricultural Age to the Industrial Age. Plenty of jobs lost, plenty of jobs created.


WBI- 41.16

"There's no point in paying a mortgage on an asset that is going to fall by 40 per cent or so in the next few years". Steve Keen, 2008.
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#8 2017-03-15 22:18:25

Stoic Phoenix
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

14335_bender.gif


www.searchnstay.com    ....for all your accommodation needs worldwide

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#9 2017-03-15 22:34:11

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

Economic decisions are made at the margin. In order to encourage job growth we have to enhance productivity as a means to encouraging extra or additional consumption aka the means of satisfying our needs - not increasing the cost of consumption or raising barriers to it.

Edit to add: it's worthwhile remembering that taxes on consumption harm producers, and that taxes on production harm consumers.

Last edited by mmm....shiney! (2017-03-15 22:38:18)


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#10 2017-03-16 02:22:34

Ag bullet
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From: SE QLD
Registered: 2013-12-26
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

House wrote:

They'd support themselves by adapting to change, upskilling themsleves and realizing that many of the manual labor jobs may not be around much longer.

or they could go on the dole


'let's get physical!'

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#11 2017-03-16 02:30:42

Big A.D.
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From: Sydney
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Posts: 6,434
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

House wrote:

They'd support themselves by adapting to change, upskilling themsleves and realizing that many of the manual labor jobs may not be around much longer. Exactly what they did as we transitioned from the Agricultural Age to the Industrial Age. Plenty of jobs lost, plenty of jobs created.

But what happens when robots and AI get better and put the upskilled workers out of a job as well?

There are already bots working in the legal field. The parking ticket bot is one of the most famous ones (and it's recently been re-deployed to help process refugee applications), but there's another one that helps people represent themselves in court (and it's an Australian one too). It won't take long for them to start spreading to other areas like wills, divorces, industrial relations, workers comp, etc.

There are loads of bots editing Wikipedia, even just for simple things like grammar and punctuation. Okay, that's "only" Wikipedia, but you used to need someone with a lot of skill and knowledge to be able to edit documents and it's not like those bots couldn't be adapted to other areas. Quite a lot of sports and financial commentary is already being written by bots.

At some point, these AIs and (physical) robots are going to get really smart. We built machines in the Industrial Age because they produced physical stuff more reliably and uniformly than human workers did. Humans were freed up to spend their time thinking about important things.

What happens when we build AIs and bots that can think better than humans can?


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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#12 2017-03-16 02:44:00

BuggedOut
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From: New South Wales
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

Nobody has all the answers, but I refuse to believe the answer is for us to sit on our ar$es and let robots do all the work under some BS universal income scheme.  To me that is effectively quitting.  Evolution ends and we become idiocracy and may as well just become extinct.

We have to try and improve ourselves, our skills and our technology.  If we are racing against the AI then so be it.

Once AI can think better than us then our teachers are redundant and education system might finally be fixed.  We can all become professional students smile

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#13 2017-03-16 02:52:09

HoldMeTender
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From: Nunya
Registered: 2016-01-06
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

BuggedOut wrote:

Nobody has all the answers, but I refuse to believe the answer is for us to sit on our ar$es and let robots do all the work under some BS universal income scheme.  To me that is effectively quitting.  Evolution ends and we become idiocracy and may as well just become extinct.

We have to try and improve ourselves, our skills and our technology.  If we are racing against the AI then so be it.

Once AI can think better than us then our teachers are redundant and education system might finally be fixed.  We can all become professional students smile

You should read some Iain M Banks.


All that glitters is not gold...
...but all that is gold glitters!

Windbag in Spandex

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#14 2017-03-16 02:58:21

Big A.D.
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From: Sydney
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 6,434
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

BuggedOut wrote:

Nobody has all the answers, but I refuse to believe the answer is for us to sit on our ar$es and let robots do all the work under some BS universal income scheme.  To me that is effectively quitting.  Evolution ends and we become idiocracy and may as well just become extinct.

We have to try and improve ourselves, our skills and our technology.  If we are racing against the AI then so be it.

Once AI can think better than us then our teachers are redundant and education system might finally be fixed.  We can all become professional students smile

Maybe that's how things will turn out: Humans will be freed up not just from physical work but mental work as well and will be able to spend their time perusing things that actually interest them.

Traditionally, working hard is seen as a virtue because it's been necessary. If there's robots and AI's that can not only do all the work but do it better than people can, work stops being necessary...and therefore, perhaps, less virtuous.


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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#15 2017-03-16 03:03:43

BuggedOut
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From: New South Wales
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

HoldMeTender wrote:

You should read some Iain M Banks.

Care to elaborate?

Big A.D. wrote:

Humans will be freed up not just from physical work but mental work as well and will be able to spend their time perusing things that actually interest them.

Sounds a lot like sitting on the beach drinking margaritas to me.

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#16 2017-03-16 05:36:25

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

Silverthorn wrote:

I don't know much about tax but wouldn't it be better to get rid of depreciation?

Depreciation encourages the adoption of new technologies, technologies that enable producers to make more efficient and effective use of scarce resources eg a new fridge that uses 30% less electricity than an old one, or modern tractors that drive themselves and calibrate their movements within centimetres reducing fuel, fertilizer and seed waste.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#17 2017-03-16 05:40:00

Silverthorn
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Silverthorn wrote:

I don't know much about tax but wouldn't it be better to get rid of depreciation?

Depreciation encourages the adoption of new technologies, technologies that enable producers to make more efficient and effective use of scarce resources eg a new fridge that uses 30% less electricity than an old one, or modern tractors that drive themselves and calibrate their movements within centimetres reducing fuel, fertilizer and seed waste.

Yeah but if it is going to put you out of a job you don't want that do you.

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#18 2017-03-16 05:57:11

mmm....shiney!
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From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

Silverthorn wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:
Silverthorn wrote:

I don't know much about tax but wouldn't it be better to get rid of depreciation?

Depreciation encourages the adoption of new technologies, technologies that enable producers to make more efficient and effective use of scarce resources eg a new fridge that uses 30% less electricity than an old one, or modern tractors that drive themselves and calibrate their movements within centimetres reducing fuel, fertilizer and seed waste.

Yeah but if it is going to put you out of a job you don't want that do you.

We could always ban power tools for carpenters and make them use hand saws and screw drivers, or ban cars and mandate the use of horse and carts. How much better would we be off? think of all the extra jobs. wink


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#19 2017-03-16 06:18:27

HoldMeTender
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From: Nunya
Registered: 2016-01-06
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

BuggedOut wrote:
HoldMeTender wrote:

You should read some Iain M Banks.

Care to elaborate?

Big A.D. wrote:

Humans will be freed up not just from physical work but mental work as well and will be able to spend their time perusing things that actually interest them.

Sounds a lot like sitting on the beach drinking margaritas to me.

Heheh, margaritas on the beach, our technological dystopia never sounded better.

Banks writes joyous science-fiction about a post-scarcity world (look it up) where all the work is done by machines, and people spend their days indulging in all kinds of pleasures enhanced by their genetically engineered drug-secreting glands and the ever-present help/protection/companionship of super-intelligent AIs.  Favourite pastimes include: thinking up ever-more extreme sports, safe in the knowledge a drone can zap into place to save you should you fall or whatever; zero-gravity orgies; studying any field that interests you; cruising around space on what are effectively cruise ships with populations in the billions; composing music for instruments that haven't even been invented; and lastly, doing whatever the turtle you like.  No-one needs a job because there is no money, but if you want to work you can perform some productive function much less effectively than a machine.. if that's what turns you on.

Made me feel much better about technological progress - though I still take my groceries to the checkout chick, but that's because I don't want to do her job for free smile

Last edited by HoldMeTender (2017-03-16 06:20:26)


All that glitters is not gold...
...but all that is gold glitters!

Windbag in Spandex

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#20 2017-03-16 06:21:45

Silverthorn
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Registered: 2010-04-29
Posts: 2,573
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Silverthorn wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:

Depreciation encourages the adoption of new technologies, technologies that enable producers to make more efficient and effective use of scarce resources eg a new fridge that uses 30% less electricity than an old one, or modern tractors that drive themselves and calibrate their movements within centimetres reducing fuel, fertilizer and seed waste.

Yeah but if it is going to put you out of a job you don't want that do you.

We could always ban power tools for carpenters and make them use hand saws and screw drivers, or ban cars and mandate the use of horse and carts. How much better would we be off? think of all the extra jobs. wink

It's the lawyers I worry about. If AI starts taking their jobs they aren't much good for anything else. Probably HR and recruitment types as well. tongue

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#21 2017-03-16 18:42:57

Big A.D.
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From: Sydney
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 6,434
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Silverthorn wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:

Depreciation encourages the adoption of new technologies, technologies that enable producers to make more efficient and effective use of scarce resources eg a new fridge that uses 30% less electricity than an old one, or modern tractors that drive themselves and calibrate their movements within centimetres reducing fuel, fertilizer and seed waste.

Yeah but if it is going to put you out of a job you don't want that do you.

We could always ban power tools for carpenters and make them use hand saws and screw drivers, or ban cars and mandate the use of horse and carts. How much better would we be off? think of all the extra jobs. wink

Banning the technology to protect jobs isn't a huge problem because it simply won't work.

Figuring out how to rearrange the social order to deal with hundreds of millions of surplus humans is where it'll get tricky.


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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#22 2017-03-16 20:23:27

Naphthalene Man
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From: Hunter Valley, NSW
Registered: 2010-02-25
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

What about a tax on self serve machine use... Lets keep the teenagers employed...
smile


''Up ahead they's a thousand' lives we might live, but when it comes, it'll only be one''
- Ma in John Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath.

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#23 2017-03-16 20:36:53

Jislizard
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From: Australia
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

We will be fine, new technology takes a long time to implement, sail boats were still in use long after the invention of steam ships.

If you already own a sail boat you aren't just going to dump it and buy a steam ship because it goes a bit faster. You might replace the sailboat when it wears out in 40 years time and then get a steam boat but by then you have had forty years to get used to the idea.
Modern technology is getting faster but it is still going to be expensive to buy a self driving delivery lorry and the early adopters are going to have to deal with a lot of regulations and teething problems. Many people will hold off until the technology is proven.

Of course, all it needs is the big supermarkets, big banks and big companies like Amazon to risk a ton of cash an implement these cost  and labour saving technologies and all the remaining small businesses will disappear anyway, won't just be the jobs going it will be the companies as well.

Last edited by Jislizard (2017-03-16 20:37:16)


Now stacking: World Junk Silver Coins.
Swap your older, worn, dirty fractional silver coins for fiat, .999 rounds or legal tender. 
Individual coins, mixed lots or bulk. 
Not looking for Australian, bent, holed or damaged coins, thanks!

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#24 2017-03-16 21:39:08

JulieW
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From: Australia
Registered: 2010-10-14
Posts: 11,087

Re: Robot Tax - Now

Naphthalene Man wrote:

What about a tax on self serve machine use... Lets keep the teenagers employed...
smile

I think they AND we, are paying a very high tax in the training ground and conditioning for larceny provided by their serve yourself machines.

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#25 2017-03-16 21:51:47

mmm....shiney!
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From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 15,893
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Re: Robot Tax - Now

Big A.D. wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:
Silverthorn wrote:

Yeah but if it is going to put you out of a job you don't want that do you.

We could always ban power tools for carpenters and make them use hand saws and screw drivers, or ban cars and mandate the use of horse and carts. How much better would we be off? think of all the extra jobs. wink

Banning the technology to protect jobs isn't a huge problem because it simply won't work.

Figuring out how to rearrange the social order to deal with hundreds of millions of surplus humans is where it'll get tricky.

No one can figure it out because no one can figure it out. So best not to try at all. At best it's pointless whilst at worst we just screw things up for countless thousands of people, just look at the 20th and 21st centuries for evidence of the failure of central planning. Society stands the best chance of adapting to technological change by not interfering in the continuing evolution of the division of labor, in other words, attempts at centrally planning the "social order" will result in worse outcomes than if individuals were left free to behave naturally, ie economic beings.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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