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#1 2017-03-08 07:09:55

Skyrocket
Silver Stacker
From: Melbourne
Registered: 2014-07-20
Posts: 4,851
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Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Good bye Federal Reserve USD fiat money?  If it gets through this may/will significantly increase the price of gold and silver?


Texas Proposal Would Include the Right to Sound Money and Bitcoin in the State Constitution

AUSTIN, Texas (March 7, 2017) – A joint resolution introduced in the Texas House proposes a state constitutional amendment to guarantee the right to own, hold and use any mutually agreed upon medium of exchange. Passage of the bill would take another step toward undermining the Federal Reserve's monopoly on money.

Rep. Matt Schaefer (R-Tyler) introduced House Join Resolution 89 (HJR89) on March 2. If passed, the resolution would place a constitutional amendment on the ballot recognizing the right of the people to own, hold, and use a mutually agreed upon medium of exchange, including cash, coin, bullion, digital currency, or privately issued scrip. The proposal would add the following language to the Texas state constitution.

"The right of the people to own, hold, and use a mutually agreed upon medium of exchange, including cash, coin, bullion, digital currency, or scrip, when trading and contracting for goods and services shall not be infringed. No government shall prohibit or encumber the ownership or holding of any form or amount of money or other currency."

In effect, passage of the bill would, as Ron Paul has often said, "legalize the Constitution" by treating gold and silver specie as money. Professor William Greene, an expert on constitutional tender, noted that the proposal would introduce competition with the Federal Reserve.  "By introducing competition in currency through 'recognizing the right of the people to own, hold, and use' bullion such as gold and silver coins, passage of the amendment would take one more step toward the ultimate goal of 'nullifying' the Federal Reserve system," he said.

http://blog.tenthamendmentcenter.com/20 … stitution/

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#2 2017-03-08 08:51:19

Court Jester
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Skyrocket wrote:

Good bye Federal Reserve USD fiat money?  If it gets through this may/will significantly increase the price of gold and silver?


Texas Proposal Would Include the Right to Sound Money and Bitcoin in the State Constitution

AUSTIN, Texas (March 7, 2017) – A joint resolution introduced in the Texas House proposes a state constitutional amendment to guarantee the right to own, hold and use any mutually agreed upon medium of exchange. Passage of the bill would take another step toward undermining the Federal Reserve's monopoly on money.

Rep. Matt Schaefer (R-Tyler) introduced House Join Resolution 89 (HJR89) on March 2. If passed, the resolution would pklace a constitutional amendment on the ballot recognizing the right of the people to own, hold, and use a mutually agreed upon medium of exchange, including cash, coin, bullion, digital currency, or privately issued scrip. The proposal would add the following language to the Texas state constitution.

"The right of the people to own, hold, and use a mutually agreed upon medium of exchange, including cash, coin, bullion, digital currency, or scrip, when trading and contracting for goods and services shall not be infringed. No government shall prohibit or encumber the ownership or holding of any form or amount of money or other currency."

In effect, passage of the bill would, as Ron Paul has often said, "legalize the Constitution" by treating gold and silver specie as money. Professor William Greene, an expert on constitutional tender, noted that the proposal would introduce competition with the Federal Reserve.  "By introducing competition in currency through 'recognizing the right of the people to own, hold, and use' bullion such as gold and silver coins, passage of the amendment would take one more step toward the ultimate goal of 'nullifying' the Federal Reserve system," he said.

http://blog.tenthamendmentcenter.com/20 … stitution/

even if it passes it wont do anything for the price of gold or silver.  again it is not making gold or silver "money" the mutually ageeed upon medium of exchanged could be dog turds.  also any medium f exchange would need a price set and mutually agreed upon again this does not make it money as it is still not a legal tender like currency for the paymentw of debts.  damn and would have so liked paying my taxes with my cbosed medium of exchange of dog turds


k


<--------------------------------------------------------- SIDEWAYS --------------------------------------------------------->
quote=sammysilver 25/10/13  ----- PMs will drive silver to over $30 by Christmas with the GSR dropping to sub 50. I've overextended myself at sub $24 but will keep buying up to $30 then sell half my stack at Easter at $36 and buy up on the next dip if there is one.
Running Telly of incorrect to correct Predictions by SammySilver -- 7:1 as of 10/08/16

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#3 2017-03-08 09:25:46

SilverDJ
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
Posts: 2,527

Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Skyrocket wrote:

Good bye Federal Reserve USD fiat money?  If it gets through this may/will significantly increase the price of gold and silver?

Why would it?
Texas is one of 50 states in the US, which is one of many major countries that contribute to the price of the metals market.
Not to mention that hardly anyone would start to use PM's as money.

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#4 2017-03-08 10:54:50

mmissinglink
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Gold and silver, yes, of course it's a proven medium of exchange.  But a cryptocurrency like Bitcoin? roll   That's just asking for trouble in spades.






.


In some ways, we are not that different

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#5 2017-03-08 20:02:29

Jislizard
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From: Australia
Registered: 2011-04-07
Posts: 7,467
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

If I had a gold coin or a handful of Federal Reserve notes and I had to pay a bill, I know which ones I would use.

It might be good for community currencies though, some councils in the UK will accept the local community currencies for payment of rates.

Some groups reward volunteers by giving them local currencies in lieu of cash, this would help them quite a bit.

It would also mean that councils could make their own currency, pay it to their gov workers and the gov workers could give it all back to the council for rates, thus increasing the money supply without inflating the value away. Or something like that, it was running like that in Argentina during the worst of their inflationary periods when the local government ran out of national currency.

It would also give some competition to the Federal Reserve, if there are two currencies circulating and one loses value every year due to inflation and the other keeps in line with inflation then many people would prefer to use the gold and silver coins, or at least that was the theory behind the Liberty Dollar.


Now stacking: World Junk Silver Coins.
Swap your older, worn, dirty fractional silver coins for fiat, .999 rounds or legal tender. 
Individual coins, mixed lots or bulk. 
Not looking for Australian, bent, holed or damaged coins, thanks!

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#6 2017-03-09 00:55:00

Skyrocket
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From: Melbourne
Registered: 2014-07-20
Posts: 4,851
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

SilverDJ wrote:
Skyrocket wrote:

Good bye Federal Reserve USD fiat money?  If it gets through this may/will significantly increase the price of gold and silver?

Why would it?
Texas is one of 50 states in the US, which is one of many major countries that contribute to the price of the metals market.
Not to mention that hardly anyone would start to use PM's as money.

It could be a precedent for other US states to follow when USD is in trouble soon.  Then the world too when their currencies are in trouble coming GFC.



Also, all them arguments on this forum about whether gold and silver is money will be ended/settled. All those that say PMs aren't money can ask Texans if they are big_smile

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#7 2017-03-09 02:57:25

Ipv6Ready
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From: North Sydney
Registered: 2016-01-08
Posts: 2,205
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

I can see Morgan and DB licking their lips in anticipation.

The mind boggles when all the shops and business hedge their gold position, the money they will make.


WTB 4 to 6 grams of pure gold. Don't care if it is coin, bar or granules. Near spot, suits anyone who has been tempted to open a certicard or just have some granules to make a ring

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#8 2017-03-09 05:08:41

Skyrocket
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Professor William Greene, an expert on constitutional tender wrote -


Ending the Federal Reserve from the Bottom Up: Re-Introducing Competitive Currency by State Adherence to Article I, Section 10

As I noted in a paper I presented at the Mises Institute ("Ending the Federal Reserve from the Bottom Up"), when you introduce competition in currency, "[o]ver time, as residents of the State use both Federal Reserve Notes and silver and gold coins, the fact that the coins hold their value more than Federal Reserve Notes do will lead to a 'reverse Gresham's Law' effect, where good money (gold and silver coins) will drive out bad money (Federal Reserve Notes)." Economist Peter Bernholz has labeled this "reverse Gresham's law" as "Thiers' Law," after French politician and historian Adolphe Thiers.

As "Thiers' Law" takes effect, a cascade of events can begin to occur, including the flow of real wealth toward the State's treasury, an influx of banking business from outside of the State (as citizens residing in other States carry out their desire to bank with sound money), and an eventual outcry against the use of Federal Reserve Notes for any transactions. Far from causing economic destabilization, as monetary theorist and Constitutional scholar Edwin Vieira notes, a "more sound currency will simply supplant a less sound currency, by operation of the free market." At that point, the Federal Reserve system will have become unwanted and irrelevant, and can be easily abolished by the people's elected Representatives in Washington, D.C.

https://mises.org/library/ending-federa … -article-i

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#9 2017-03-09 05:41:03

Ipv6Ready
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From: North Sydney
Registered: 2016-01-08
Posts: 2,205
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Looked this up, and I don't think it's going to work. Utah state government would have to force it to work plus this is only USA junk coins and USA gold denominated coins.

Without enforcement other than tourist for novelty who could be borthered.

The strangest thing is they seem to be looking to create their own depository notes. Now is going to hand in PM to a state depository run by politician from Hicksville.

Last edited by Ipv6Ready (2017-03-09 17:34:34)


WTB 4 to 6 grams of pure gold. Don't care if it is coin, bar or granules. Near spot, suits anyone who has been tempted to open a certicard or just have some granules to make a ring

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#10 2017-03-09 16:21:01

Skyrocket
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From: Melbourne
Registered: 2014-07-20
Posts: 4,851
Trades :   36 

Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Even if Texas don't do it I think it is only a matter of time before other nations will because of current world debt environment. When one nation does it I think it will be a snowball for others to follow.

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#11 2017-03-09 17:03:48

Gullintanni
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From: New Zealand
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Skyrocket wrote:

Even if Texas don't do it I think it is only a matter of time before other nations will because of current world debt environment. When one nation does it I think it will be a snowball for others to follow.

Why would they want to have a tangible substance for debt repayment when they can have printed paper?
The dream of any precious metal becoming a standard for payments on a world scale is nothing ore than a pipe dream (no disrespect intended).
It would simply make no sense to switch out of paper as it would make debt repayment near impossible and the whole thing will keep ticking along well after we all here are gone.

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#12 2017-03-09 17:25:24

Ipv6Ready
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From: North Sydney
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Gullintanni wrote:
Skyrocket wrote:

Even if Texas don't do it I think it is only a matter of time before other nations will because of current world debt environment. When one nation does it I think it will be a snowball for others to follow.

Why would they want to have a tangible substance for debt repayment when they can have printed paper?
The dream of any precious metal becoming a standard for payments on a world scale is nothing ore than a pipe dream (no disrespect intended).
It would simply make no sense to switch out of paper as it would make debt repayment near impossible and the whole thing will keep ticking along well after we all here are gone.

It seems to me some Utah politicians have stakes in gold dealers and itching to get their hands on people's PM.
Plus would the locals hand in gold and be happy to receive local depository backed certificates.

I presume they are going to set the price to, otherwise can you imagine to queue at the till, on every transaction look at spot price and negotiate the change.

Diner paying for dinner : I have unc silver eagle I need 20% premium minimum.
Restaurant : no can do spot value only, for change I will give you silver nickel and three copper clad quarter.
Diner : I only want silver in change
Restaurant : this is too hard pay cash please.


WTB 4 to 6 grams of pure gold. Don't care if it is coin, bar or granules. Near spot, suits anyone who has been tempted to open a certicard or just have some granules to make a ring

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#13 2017-03-09 17:56:00

Ipv6Ready
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From: North Sydney
Registered: 2016-01-08
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

I think what people forget with PM backed currency is that, the PEOPLE can't have a floating currency.

The value has to be set and in all gold backed currency it was base metals and promissory notes / certificates were the mainstay of money in circulation.

If only Utah did it, would all their workers look at spot at every pay day?

If spot of gold went up 10% that week the worker will be happy, if went up 25% would be laughing
If spot of gold went down 10% that week the worker won't be happy....

If you set it at $1200 and the gold went up to $1400 gold money will disappear from the state as people go across the border into other states to be turned into cash.

Conversely if you are an Utah car dealer would you advertise 20 gold eagles with a caveat saying only if spot is x.


WTB 4 to 6 grams of pure gold. Don't care if it is coin, bar or granules. Near spot, suits anyone who has been tempted to open a certicard or just have some granules to make a ring

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#14 2017-03-09 21:26:58

Court Jester
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From: Gold Coast QLD
Registered: 2012-07-30
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Skyrocket wrote:

Even if Texas don't do it I think it is only a matter of time before other nations will because of current world debt environment. When one nation does it I think it will be a snowball for others to follow.


Again my chosen medium of exchange is dog turds.  That legislation lets the user pick.  So how many ounces of worthless gold will you give me for my precious dog turds?  Each one is unique, priceless work of art.

Last edited by Court Jester (2017-03-09 21:27:12)


<--------------------------------------------------------- SIDEWAYS --------------------------------------------------------->
quote=sammysilver 25/10/13  ----- PMs will drive silver to over $30 by Christmas with the GSR dropping to sub 50. I've overextended myself at sub $24 but will keep buying up to $30 then sell half my stack at Easter at $36 and buy up on the next dip if there is one.
Running Telly of incorrect to correct Predictions by SammySilver -- 7:1 as of 10/08/16

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#15 2017-03-10 01:03:23

mmissinglink
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Posts: 6,085
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Court Jester wrote:
Skyrocket wrote:

Even if Texas don't do it I think it is only a matter of time before other nations will because of current world debt environment. When one nation does it I think it will be a snowball for others to follow.


Again my chosen medium of exchange is dog turds.  That legislation lets the user pick.  So how many ounces of worthless gold will you give me for my precious dog turds?  Each one is unique, priceless work of art.





Not far from the truth. The entire value of anything inanimate (such as a commodity or a claim) is the value what people attach to it.

The best money is something that can be easily exchanged for goods and services, that is recognizable by just about everyone who is expected to use it, that can not be easily reproduced or counterfeited, and that the people can have confidence in. Some day, special dog poop might be that best money (medium of exchange).   wink




.


In some ways, we are not that different

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#16 2017-03-10 02:22:52

Skyrocket
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From: Melbourne
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

I don't think they mean to go buy small items with gold and silver. Just the right to own, hold and trade with it.

Some Texans know the USD is going down sooner or later and they may be putting something in place so US government cannot call all gold/silver in like they did before with gold. That happened before in Australia too.

Treason is what I see here! Everyone who posted in this thread so far should be hanged for it  tongue

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#17 2017-03-10 02:56:05

Skyrocket
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Do not let them confiscate your PMs!!

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#18 2017-03-10 03:17:35

Court Jester
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From: Gold Coast QLD
Registered: 2012-07-30
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Skyrocket wrote:

Do not let them confiscate your PMs!!


What PM's

I dont have enough space in the safety deposit box as its filled with my precious dog turds.

Last edited by Court Jester (2017-03-10 03:18:14)


<--------------------------------------------------------- SIDEWAYS --------------------------------------------------------->
quote=sammysilver 25/10/13  ----- PMs will drive silver to over $30 by Christmas with the GSR dropping to sub 50. I've overextended myself at sub $24 but will keep buying up to $30 then sell half my stack at Easter at $36 and buy up on the next dip if there is one.
Running Telly of incorrect to correct Predictions by SammySilver -- 7:1 as of 10/08/16

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#19 2017-03-10 10:42:33

mmissinglink
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Posts: 6,085
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

For more than 99% of the people in the world today, gold and silver is not money because it doesn't function as such.


Texas should allow for anything to be used as money if they are going to go through the effort they seem to be....why should legislators have the say as to whether dog turd or anything else can or can't be used as money? So long as no one is harmed and so long as the people are good with the medium of exchange, what can be used as money should be left wide open and for the people to decide. And yes, if some people are okay with using a cryptocurrency to function as their money, then they should be allowed to....but don't come crying to the rest of us when your gazzillion cryptos vanish into thin air because a 13 year old computer hacker in Kajubistan steals them just after you sold your car and while you are preparing to pay for the new car.  roll






Bob and John are trying to determine the true value of silver....not the value based off of the spot price or based off of any other price or value.

If John attaches a value of 5 to a 1 ounce blob of generic silver...

but Bob attaches a value of 250 to a 1 ounce blob of generic silver....

surely they both can't be right....can they?


Yes, of course they are both right. Because the intrinsic value of any inanimate thing is an empty set, that means that what someone is willing to attach to it becomes its true value. The true value of anything is always subjective.

Now with silver, for example, some people still sadly confuse or conflate the LBMA set price to "intrinsic value".   Even more oddly, it's probably many of the same people who think that the LBMA price is manipulated or rigged who think that it alone determines some "intrinsic value".


Silver and gold have no intrinsic value. The only value they have is what each person attaches to it. Most people I know don't have any need or use for blobs of silver so they would attach zero to such things. Doomsdayers, on the other hand, believe that the post apocalyptic world is nigh and that a blob of silver will become indispensable and therefore virtually invaluable post apocalypse.


I'd argue that the value any inanimate thing is it's "buying power". So, I look at a generic blob of metal in terms of what I can buy with the money I can get for it since a generic blob of metal is not money and is otherwise useless to me....it's value is what I subjectively perceive its "buying power" to be.




.

Last edited by mmissinglink (2017-03-10 12:30:15)


In some ways, we are not that different

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#20 2017-03-10 14:38:27

Gullintanni
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

So just spit balling here but with the passage of this bill would it not mean that the state has monetized bartering?
With anything now being allowed as"currency" does this mean the state will be able to attach a dollar amount and in the end this will just be a way to  TAX BARTERING?
If you really think about it ,are they really just opening up a tax door that they have been missing out on?

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#21 2017-03-10 17:37:01

mmissinglink
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

^  Even if that wasn't the initial intention, perhaps to get legislation through, it would have to be written in a way that leaves the back door open to the legal taxation of barter.




.

Last edited by mmissinglink (2017-03-10 17:37:34)


In some ways, we are not that different

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#22 2017-03-10 21:24:26

Skyrocket
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

What Ron Paul said. Listen all way through -

New! Ron Paul Responds Bill for Silver and Gold As Money 2017 pt 2 Testimony Silver Gold Sound Money

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#23 2017-03-11 10:35:16

mmissinglink
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Ron Paul comes across as incoherent. He doesn't finish some sentences...a pathetic Trump trait. Paul's also very wrong in presuming that gold and silver are money. Paul forgets that we are not living in the 4th century. The US $ is not fraudulent money. It may not be the kind of money some people want, but that doesn't mean that it's fraudulent. Money is what it is regardless of what Paul wants it to be.

Additionally, Paul handled Senator Farley's second question poorly.



As much as I'd like to see the bill pass, if the proposed bill is relying on feeble voices like Paul's to get it passed, I'm guessing it won't pass.  roll




.


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#24 2017-03-11 18:31:25

Skyrocket
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From: Melbourne
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Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

mmissinglink wrote:

Ron Paul comes across as incoherent. He doesn't finish some sentences...a pathetic Trump trait. Paul's also very wrong in presuming that gold and silver are money. Paul forgets that we are not living in the 4th century. The US $ is not fraudulent money. It may not be the kind of money some people want, but that doesn't mean that it's fraudulent. Money is what it is regardless of what Paul wants it to be.

Additionally, Paul handled Senator Farley's second question poorly.

As much as I'd like to see the bill pass, if the proposed bill is relying on feeble voices like Paul's to get it passed, I'm guessing it won't pass.  roll


You are wrong on all counts. Ron Paul does not come across as incoherent and he was also right in presuming that gold and silver are money.

You are wrong because the bill just got PASSED!  big_smile


Arizona Senate Committee Passes Bill To Treat Gold As Money, Remove Capital Gains Tax

Today, an Arizona Senate Committee passed a bill that would eliminate state capital gains taxes on gold and silver specie, and encourage its use as currency. Final approval of the legislation would help undermine the Federal Reserve's monopoly on money.

20170308_ronpaul.jpg

Former US Rep. Ron Paul testified today in the Senate Finance Committee in support of House Bill 2014 (HB2014). The legislation, which previously passed the state House by a 35-24 vote, would eliminate state capital gains taxes on income "derived from the exchange of one kind of legal tender for another kind of legal tender." The bill defines legal tender as "a medium of exchange, including specie, that is authorized by the United States Constitution or Congress for the payment of debts, public charges, taxes and dues." "Specie" means coins having precious metal content.

In effect, passage of the bill would, as Paul noted, "legalize competition in a Constitutional fashion."

Under current Arizona law, gold and silver are subject to capital gains tax when exchanged for Federal Reserve notes, or when used in barter transactions. If the purchasing power of the Federal Reserve note has decreased due to inflation, the metals' nominal dollar value generally rises and that triggers a "gain." In most cases, of course, the capital gain is purely fictional. But these "gains" are still taxed — thus unfairly punishing people using precious metals as money.

    "We ought not to tax money, and that's a good idea. It makes no sense to tax money," said Paul. "Paper is not money, it's a substitute for money and it's fraud," Paul continued, noting the importance of honesty money vs federal reserve notes.

Today, the Senate Finance Committee passed the bill by a 4-3 vote along party lines.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-0 … -gains-tax


Now that it happened could it be a precedent for others to follow, especially when currencies start collapsing?

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#25 2017-03-11 18:37:51

Ipv6Ready
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From: North Sydney
Registered: 2016-01-08
Posts: 2,205
Trades :   39 

Re: Texas proposal the right to use PMs as money in state constition

Of course it can happen, when US currency falls, history tells us, all currency fall, just like Romans, Spanish, Dutch, and Pound, of which were all Gold backed.

As for other currencies falling affecting in US context simply no, why would it matter to Americans if the euro, aud, Venezuelans, Zimbabwe or the Brits pound collapse?


WTB 4 to 6 grams of pure gold. Don't care if it is coin, bar or granules. Near spot, suits anyone who has been tempted to open a certicard or just have some granules to make a ring

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