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#26 2017-01-05 13:07:19

errol43
Silver Stacker
From: Bundaberg
Registered: 2010-04-13
Posts: 6,313
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

bordsilver wrote:
Agnostic wrote:

Just trying to remember, what is the official government reasoning whereby East Timor is worthy of its noble and splendid independence whereas West Papua is forever sovereign Indonesian land?

Please help me with my cognitive dissonance.

It was recognised by the UN.

No veto from the US?

No election?

Regards Errol 43

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#27 2017-01-05 13:15:20

errol43
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From: Bundaberg
Registered: 2010-04-13
Posts: 6,313
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

bordsilver wrote:
errol43 wrote:

We screwed East Timor with the oil deal...

This is false. The oil deal was hugely beneficial for East Timor (especially in the circumstances that they were in) and cost the Australian Government. Saying that, given they are proving themselves to be able to form a stable society with an effective rule of law, there may be a point where it is worthwhile to revisit the original deal.

Did the Australian Government bug the Conference room where the deal was been discussed? Who drew up the borders so that  it was not 50/50? Continental Shelf BS.

Did the Australian Government refuse to give a visa to a witness who was prepared to give evidence at the  International court  in The Hague?

Bordsilver, Surely you must work in Canberra to defend the blue team at every opportunity!

Regards Errol 43

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#28 2017-01-05 17:57:01

bordsilver
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From: The rocks
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 9,515
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

errol43 wrote:
bordsilver wrote:
Agnostic wrote:

Just trying to remember, what is the official government reasoning whereby East Timor is worthy of its noble and splendid independence whereas West Papua is forever sovereign Indonesian land?

Please help me with my cognitive dissonance.

It was recognised by the UN.

No veto from the US?

No election?

Regards Errol 43

I don't know what the US did in terms of the voting but they sent troops as part of the UN peacekeeping force (INTERFET). Has West Papua had any UN resolutions?


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

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#29 2017-01-05 18:12:40

bordsilver
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From: The rocks
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 9,515
Trades :   36 

Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

errol43 wrote:
bordsilver wrote:
errol43 wrote:

We screwed East Timor with the oil deal...

This is false. The oil deal was hugely beneficial for East Timor (especially in the circumstances that they were in) and cost the Australian Government. Saying that, given they are proving themselves to be able to form a stable society with an effective rule of law, there may be a point where it is worthwhile to revisit the original deal.

Did the Australian Government bug the Conference room where the deal was been discussed? Who drew up the borders so that  it was not 50/50? Continental Shelf BS.

Did the Australian Government refuse to give a visa to a witness who was prepared to give evidence at the  International court  in The Hague?

Bordsilver, Surely you must work in Canberra to defend the blue team at every opportunity!

Regards Errol 43

I think you're mixing up RNT's (past?) support for the blue team with me wink

Anyway, as a newly fledged country that was just emerging from the ashes of decades of highly destructive war and being led by a government primarily composed of ex-militants, history would say that the prospects that international investors would be safe from sovereign risk (or other risks associated with the country self-destructing) were very low to say the least.

To support foreign investment in the Joint Petroleum Development Area (JPDA), the Australian Government provided the security and access to a recognised, stable rule of law and associated judicial processes. Something like 90% of the tax revenues from the JPDA are remitted to Timor Leste even though more than half the fields are located in what had been deemed Australian waters under the 1972 Australia-Indonesia Seabed boundary and despite the Australian Government bearing most of the costs of managing it. In the context of the newly formed nation, this was a very good deal for the Timorese.

However, as I said, the Timorese Government have largely proven to defy history and have largely side-stepped the corruption and mis-management that tends to arise in countries that have gone through similar circumstance. This is a massive credit to them and it is exciting going over there and seeing a responsible government in action and the progress that has been made in rebuilding a country that had been ravaged by the Indonesian military. If this continues, then at some point in the future it will be necessary to revisit the original deal.

Last edited by bordsilver (2017-01-05 18:18:11)


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

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#30 2017-01-05 18:34:04

errol43
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From: Bundaberg
Registered: 2010-04-13
Posts: 6,313
Trades :   

Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

bordsilver wrote:
errol43 wrote:
bordsilver wrote:

This is false. The oil deal was hugely beneficial for East Timor (especially in the circumstances that they were in) and cost the Australian Government. Saying that, given they are proving themselves to be able to form a stable society with an effective rule of law, there may be a point where it is worthwhile to revisit the original deal.

Did the Australian Government bug the Conference room where the deal was been discussed? Who drew up the borders so that  it was not 50/50? Continental Shelf BS.

Did the Australian Government refuse to give a visa to a witness who was prepared to give evidence at the  International court  in The Hague?

Bordsilver, Surely you must work in Canberra to defend the blue team at every opportunity!

Regards Errol 43

I think you're mixing up RNT's (past?) support for the blue team with me wink

Anyway, as a newly fledged country that was just emerging from the ashes of decades of highly destructive war and being led by a government primarily composed of ex-militants, history would say that the prospects that international investors would be safe from sovereign risk (or other risks associated with the country self-destructing) were very low to say the least.

To support foreign investment in the Joint Petroleum Development Area (JPDA), the Australian Government provided the security and access to a recognised, stable rule of law and associated judicial processes. Something like 90% of the tax revenues from the JPDA are remitted to Timor Leste even though more than half the fields are located in what had been deemed Australian waters under the 1972 Australia-Indonesia Seabed boundary and despite the Australian Government bearing most of the costs of managing it. In the context of the newly formed nation, this was a very good deal for the Timorese.

However, as I said, the Timorese Government have largely proven to defy history and have largely side-stepped the corruption and mis-management that tends to arise in countries that have gone through similar circumstance. This is a massive credit to them and it is exciting going over there and seeing a responsible government in action and the progress that has been made in rebuilding a country that had been ravaged by the Indonesian military. If this continues, then at some point in the future it will be necessary to revisit the original deal.

The boundary lines to determine Australian waters is IMO Not fair...No comment on the spying by Australia?

Regards Errol 43

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#31 2017-01-05 19:09:50

bordsilver
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From: The rocks
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 9,515
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

errol43 wrote:

The boundary lines to determine Australian waters is IMO Not fair...No comment on the spying by Australia?

Regards Errol 43

I am not particularly familiar with the history for the original 1972 boundary lines or the historical international methods/rationale for determining boundaries between countries or international waters so I can't really comment. To my knowledge the JPDA struck a balance toward using the previous "continental shelf" definition as per the 1972 lines and the "median line" approach. In my mind the heart of the issue is really how best to foster the development of the resources in the JPDA given that the Indonesian military had only just been kicked out and I think the outcome whereby it is technically owned by Australia with Timor as a joint venture partner was completely pragmatic and sensible (especially given that Timor gets 90% of the petroleum tax revenues).

In terms of the spying, I don't know if I have a strong opinion except in the context of privacy. Government's are the worst for breaching people's privacy. So I think it is morally wrong that they spied on the Timorese just as I think it is morally wrong that they spy so much on my activities without my consent.


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

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#32 2017-01-05 19:14:49

radiobirdman
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Registered: 2011-04-25
Posts: 2,300
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

bordsilver wrote:

In terms of the spying, I don't know if I have a strong opinion except in the context of privacy. Government's are the worst for breaching people's privacy. So I think it is morally wrong that they spied on the Timorese just as I think it is morally wrong that they spy so much on my activities without my consent.

Are the Government spying on you because you work for them ?
Or because you used to be a radical hippy or something like that
Or just the regular spying on everybody

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#33 2017-01-05 19:16:56

bordsilver
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From: The rocks
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 9,515
Trades :   36 

Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

radiobirdman wrote:
bordsilver wrote:

In terms of the spying, I don't know if I have a strong opinion except in the context of privacy. Government's are the worst for breaching people's privacy. So I think it is morally wrong that they spied on the Timorese just as I think it is morally wrong that they spy so much on my activities without my consent.

Are the Government spying on you because you work for them ?
Or because you used to be a radical hippy or something like that
Or just the regular spying on everybody

Just the regular spying on everyone. Even though my mum said I'm special I don't think the Government believes that I'm particularly interesting wink


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

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#34 2017-01-05 19:30:50

radiobirdman
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Registered: 2011-04-25
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

I got my phone tapped by the cops/government way back in the early 80s, no dissent allowed with the Australian Act 1986 apparently

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#35 2017-01-05 19:56:52

betterlatethannever
Banned
From: Boganstan
Registered: 2016-09-13
Posts: 503

Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

The Indonesia government gets upset when we spy on them because they cannot spy on us as easily if at all because they don't have "the resources"

So he who has more "resources" to throw at spying or most problems wins  wink

Last edited by betterlatethannever (2017-01-05 20:28:30)


SPECIAL NOTE - Supporting The Nation Of Israel 100% Of The Time 100% - Shalom.

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#36 2017-01-05 21:52:04

tolly_67
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Registered: 2010-05-17
Posts: 1,716
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

Isn't it funny......we would not accept our neighbour reading our mail, peeping through our windows, eavesdropping our phone calls
but when we put the a..hole into government, we don't seem to have a problem with him monitoring every key stroke, every phone call, following our every move.
Hello.......soon he will be able to see our every transaction.
I understand why the Indonesians get upset because I get upset also.

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#37 2017-01-05 22:48:45

betterlatethannever
Banned
From: Boganstan
Registered: 2016-09-13
Posts: 503

Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

tolly_67 wrote:

Isn't it funny......we would not accept our neighbour reading our mail, peeping through our windows, eavesdropping our phone calls
but when we put the a..hole into government, we don't seem to have a problem with him monitoring every key stroke, every phone call, following our every move.
Hello.......soon he will be able to see our every transaction.
I understand why the Indonesians get upset because I get upset also.

just like facebook and google feeding the government your personal details for profit  hmm

plus it happens right here logging into ones account from the inside opening ones mail and re-writing it  mad  and I am not talking about censorship  big_smile


SPECIAL NOTE - Supporting The Nation Of Israel 100% Of The Time 100% - Shalom.

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#38 2017-01-05 22:53:34

radiobirdman
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Registered: 2011-04-25
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

Kingdoms/Nations/tribes  have been spying on there neighbours since Adam was a boy
No reason for anyone to act shocked or surprised

As for the government spying on its own citizens/slaves STOP voting them in

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#39 2017-01-06 02:36:46

errol43
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From: Bundaberg
Registered: 2010-04-13
Posts: 6,313
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

When East Timor and Australia were doing the deal , Australia knew in advance what the Timor delegation was thinking! Why? Because ASIO bugged the conference room...

IMO, the Australian government should show respect to a people who sacrificed so much helping Australian soldiers fighting against the Japanese in WW2.

Australian governments should hang their heads in shame. Are they scared of backing up governments like East Timor and Irian Jaya?

Australians are a brave people, I hope we never descend into a position where Australia is scared shitless by a nation like Indonesia.

Regards Errol 43

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#40 2017-01-06 03:54:04

ShinyStuff
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2011-04-29
Posts: 606
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

radiobirdman wrote:

I wonder whatever happened to ALL the Buddhists and Hindus that used to occupy the country's /land mass from Afghanistan to the islands of Indonesia
Probably the same thing that is happening today sadly

After being decimated of a lot of young men in the two world wars, the government  of the day probably thought we were in no position to do anything about the invasion of
Dutch east indies
As for Whitlam's deplorable behaviour in the 70s no idea you would have to ask a socialist I have no idea how they think

As for being a racist and a bigot probably? but nowere near as bigoted and racist as the moslims or the Aboriginals

Maybe you should be glad that you won the "universe lottery" and were born a white male in Australia.  Imagine if you lost the lottery and were born in the slums of Calcutta.  Let's see what views you have then.

Stop saying "Abos" and "Aboriginals" as I find both offensive.  Perhaps if you can't say something nice, you need to not say it. 

Shiny.

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#41 2017-01-06 03:59:04

radiobirdman
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Registered: 2011-04-25
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

So Aboriginal is now offensive FFS what are we supposed to call them then ?

Last edited by radiobirdman (2017-01-06 03:59:25)

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#42 2017-01-06 04:22:09

radiobirdman
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Registered: 2011-04-25
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

So no more calling an Australian an Aussie I suppose, what about calling New Zealanders Kiwi's ? probably out of bounds as well
Apparently its not ok to shorten names anymore, looks like that is the end of Australian culture then, no more strine
No more taking the piss no more jokes no more anything encase someone gets offended
What a wonderful life you young snowflakes will have totally devoid of humour

You can take your political correct language and ......................................

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#43 2017-01-06 04:25:49

radiobirdman
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

By the way Shiney stuff its aborigine that they find offensive and prefer to be called Aboriginal

If your going to be "offended" at least know what your talking about

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#44 2017-01-06 05:00:48

ShinyStuff
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From: Australia
Registered: 2011-04-29
Posts: 606
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

radiobirdman wrote:

So Aboriginal is now offensive FFS what are we supposed to call them then ?

"Them"... please stop for a second.

You are showing your true colours - three separate replies, your feathers ruffled because I had the audacity to ask you to think about others who may not like the way that you refer to "them."

Not sure why the original people of Australia, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples offend you so much that you need to push them lower that yourself.

I am not interested in trying to educate you on how we should treat our neighbours, that is what our own parents are for (and also wives/husbands/partners and children - as my own remind me of the need to be a positive role model each day) .  All I ask is that you remember that you kiss your mum/wife/daughter with those same lips that like to swear and offend others with. 

Shiny.

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#45 2017-01-06 05:12:32

radiobirdman
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Registered: 2011-04-25
Posts: 2,300
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

Apparently its ok for you to call insert whatever word wont offend YOU Aboriginals but not me
I could give you 100+ reasons why I think Aboriginal and Torres straight islander culture is shit and why our Australian culture is way better
But I would not waste my time on
Feel free to be "offended" about everything for all I care

I would be very surprised if you had ever seen a real Abo

Last edited by radiobirdman (2017-01-06 05:15:17)

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#46 2017-01-06 05:57:15

betterlatethannever
Banned
From: Boganstan
Registered: 2016-09-13
Posts: 503

Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

ShinyStuff wrote:
radiobirdman wrote:

I wonder whatever happened to ALL the Buddhists and Hindus that used to occupy the country's /land mass from Afghanistan to the islands of Indonesia
Probably the same thing that is happening today sadly

After being decimated of a lot of young men in the two world wars, the government  of the day probably thought we were in no position to do anything about the invasion of
Dutch east indies
As for Whitlam's deplorable behaviour in the 70s no idea you would have to ask a socialist I have no idea how they think

As for being a racist and a bigot probably? but nowere near as bigoted and racist as the moslims or the Aboriginals

Maybe you should be glad that you won the "universe lottery" and were born a white male in Australia.  Imagine if you lost the lottery and were born in the slums of Calcutta.  Let's see what views you have then.

Stop saying "Abos" and "Aboriginals" as I find both offensive.  Perhaps if you can't say something nice, you need to not say it. 

Shiny.

I am not having a crack at radiobirdman but I have underlined some of the above text to challenge (and offend unavoidably) the idea of a "random lottery" placing you and me in Australia by birth (or by plane) and every other person exactly where they are by birth (or by plane) on this tiny planet randomly hurtling through space at over 20,000 Kilometres per hour with billions of "more random" stuff.

Besides there is "just enough" oxygen to sustain life here on Earth - any closer to the Sun and we would melt - any further away we would freeze - plus other examples I am sure.

Random - or by - Design  smile

Last edited by betterlatethannever (2017-01-06 06:05:38)


SPECIAL NOTE - Supporting The Nation Of Israel 100% Of The Time 100% - Shalom.

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#47 2017-01-06 22:27:12

alor
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From: Pulau Alor ;)
Registered: 2011-06-16
Posts: 4,469
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Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

errol43 wrote:

When East Timor and Australia were doing the deal , Australia knew in advance what the Timor delegation was thinking! Why? Because ASIO bugged the conference room...

IMO, the Australian government should show respect to a people who sacrificed so much helping Australian soldiers fighting against the Japanese in WW2.

Australian governments should hang their heads in shame. Are they scared of backing up governments like East Timor and Irian Jaya?

Australians are a brave people, I hope we never descend into a position where Australia is scared shitless by a nation like Indonesia.

Regards Errol 43

Its just natural for small to fear the big, China can shit bury us alive lol literally
the same can be seen as Indonesia vs Australia population in scale.

there is relations between governments, and between peoples, so the government can not just ignore the will of the people of other nations.


Hear Say See -> N o t h i n g
May this stacking hobby be my blessing smile

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#48 2017-01-06 23:00:12

serial
Silver Stacker
From: wa
Registered: 2012-08-19
Posts: 3,289
Trades :   205 

Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

ShinyStuff wrote:
radiobirdman wrote:

I wonder whatever happened to ALL the Buddhists and Hindus that used to occupy the country's /land mass from Afghanistan to the islands of Indonesia
Probably the same thing that is happening today sadly

After being decimated of a lot of young men in the two world wars, the government  of the day probably thought we were in no position to do anything about the invasion of
Dutch east indies
As for Whitlam's deplorable behaviour in the 70s no idea you would have to ask a socialist I have no idea how they think

As for being a racist and a bigot probably? but nowere near as bigoted and racist as the moslims or the Aboriginals

Maybe you should be glad that you won the "universe lottery" and were born a white male in Australia.  Imagine if you lost the lottery and were born in the slums of Calcutta.  Let's see what views you have then.

Stop saying "Abos" and "Aboriginals" as I find both offensive.  Perhaps if you can't say something nice, you need to not say it. 

Shiny.

I love when people are so obviously professionally offended over things people say then try to stifle them with cries of racism etc
you should watch the video below shineystuff, he is talking about you

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#49 2017-01-06 23:11:03

JulieW
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2010-10-14
Posts: 10,997

Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!

Blackfellas.

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#50 2017-01-07 02:17:14

Stoic Phoenix
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From: little things big things grow.
Registered: 2014-11-12
Posts: 2,794
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Website

Re: Boycott Indonesia especially Bali!


www.searchnstay.com    ....for all your accommodation needs worldwide

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