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#1 2016-11-30 05:17:05

sfstacker
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Registered: 2016-10-25
Posts: 384
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Diamonds

I've been looking at the Diamonds sold by Provident. I think I may buy one or two but I'm not sure if its worth it.

Pros/Cons?

Also, how would I value these? With bullion I can just look at the spot prince but how do I find the actual value of the diamonds?

This is one of the items I'm looking at: https://www.providentmetals.com/diamond … oints.html

Their buyback price (939) is only $60 under their sale price so is it correct to assume that the value of these as just bullion is at least $940?

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#2 2016-11-30 05:19:37

spannermonkey
Silver Stacker
From: Vic or pissed
Registered: 2010-06-04
Posts: 14,649
Trades :   228 

Re: Diamonds

DON'T go there


EXIT STAGE LEFT

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#3 2016-11-30 06:28:17

Phil_Stacker
Member
From: Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Registered: 2016-11-05
Posts: 266
Trades :   12 

Re: Diamonds

I looked into their claims (got a brochure). They lie. Almost every fact is a lie.  A diamond dealer once told me that there are two ways to profit from diamonds, put them on the finger of someone you want to keep or sell them to someone who wants to do that.  VERY  subjective, controlled and unethical industry.

Again, don't get into it big time unless you want to put in hours of research.

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#4 2016-11-30 06:28:32

Trident
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From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 2013-12-10
Posts: 68
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Re: Diamonds

Do not pay $1000 for that!

The value is determined by perceived rarity, brilliance, size, grading etc..marketing, retail pricing and what people are willing to pay.

I'm not sure that you would personally be able to determine the exact value yourself unless you have a market to sell to or a knowledge of the gem trade/  jewellery industry. As such, that may put you into the "what people are willing to pay" camp. In some cases the packaging, grading and marketing can make a tiny shiny rock look and seem valuable. In reality, the rocks are probably only worth a few dollars each.

Probably safe to assume you won't be able to sell for the same price you paid (if you pay retail) - as in your provident metals example =instantly losing $60. If they decided to drop their Buy Back - would you have an alternative buyer?

If you have never been to a local gem fare - go to one - you might be surprised how inexpensive gems stones really are.

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#5 2016-11-30 06:39:48

spannermonkey
Silver Stacker
From: Vic or pissed
Registered: 2010-06-04
Posts: 14,649
Trades :   228 

Re: Diamonds

Containers of them
Yes 45 ft containers of them stashed in the UK wink

Debeers have a deal with the UK gov that NO diamond imported & exports are ever counted yikes
It's a pissing contest between the mega rich

Now find me a 5-6 ct natural ruby & you have a rare stone
After you find it please send it this way lol


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#6 2016-11-30 06:44:23

sfstacker
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Registered: 2016-10-25
Posts: 384
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Re: Diamonds

Trident wrote:

Do not pay $1000 for that!

The value is determined by perceived rarity, brilliance, size, grading etc..marketing, retail pricing and what people are willing to pay.

I'm not sure that you would personally be able to determine the exact value yourself unless you have a market to sell to or a knowledge of the gem trade/  jewellery industry. As such, that may put you into the "what people are willing to pay" camp. In some cases the packaging, grading and marketing can make a tiny shiny rock look and seem valuable. In reality, the rocks are probably only worth a few dollars each.

Probably safe to assume you won't be able to sell for the same price you paid (if you pay retail) - as in your provident metals example =instantly losing $60. If they decided to drop their Buy Back - would you have an alternative buyer?

If you have never been to a local gem fare - go to one - you might be surprised how inexpensive gems stones really are.

I know that the market dictates diamond prices. Same for PM bullions. But for bullion you got a base. Weight/fineness/spot price. There has to be a base calculator for diamonds that's something along the lines carats/inclusions/color, right??

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#7 2016-11-30 07:39:20

Ipv6Ready
Silver Stacker
From: North Sydney
Registered: 2016-01-08
Posts: 2,214
Trades :   39 

Re: Diamonds

among gems, diamonds are actually the most common.

You are actually paying for marketing and labour of the cutter.


WTB 4 to 6 grams of pure gold. Don't care if it is coin, bar or granules. Near spot, suits anyone who has been tempted to open a certicard or just have some granules to make a ring

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#8 2016-11-30 07:39:35

SilverDJ
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
Posts: 2,528

Re: Diamonds

sfstacker wrote:

Also, how would I value these?

Valuations are only good for insurance purposes, useless otherwise.

With bullion I can just look at the spot prince but how do I find the actual value of the diamonds?

You can't. It's only worth whatever the next sucker is willing to pay.
Don't invest in diamonds, you'll be in for a rude shock when you go to sell them.

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#9 2016-11-30 07:43:04

SilverDJ
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
Posts: 2,528

Re: Diamonds

sfstacker wrote:

I know that the market dictates diamond prices. Same for PM bullions. But for bullion you got a base. Weight/fineness/spot price. There has to be a base calculator for diamonds that's something along the lines carats/inclusions/color, right??

There is a basic formula based on weight:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamonds_as_an_investment
But diamond valuations are basically a crock. Seriously, don't go there.

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#10 2016-11-30 07:46:04

ParanoidAndroid
Member
From: S.E.Q
Registered: 2015-12-02
Posts: 329
Trades :   21 

Re: Diamonds

sfstacker wrote:
Trident wrote:

Do not pay $1000 for that!

The value is determined by perceived rarity, brilliance, size, grading etc..marketing, retail pricing and what people are willing to pay.

I'm not sure that you would personally be able to determine the exact value yourself unless you have a market to sell to or a knowledge of the gem trade/  jewellery industry. As such, that may put you into the "what people are willing to pay" camp. In some cases the packaging, grading and marketing can make a tiny shiny rock look and seem valuable. In reality, the rocks are probably only worth a few dollars each.

Probably safe to assume you won't be able to sell for the same price you paid (if you pay retail) - as in your provident metals example =instantly losing $60. If they decided to drop their Buy Back - would you have an alternative buyer?

If you have never been to a local gem fare - go to one - you might be surprised how inexpensive gems stones really are.

I know that the market dictates diamond prices. Same for PM bullions. But for bullion you got a base. Weight/fineness/spot price. There has to be a base calculator for diamonds that's something along the lines carats/inclusions/color, right??

As others have suggested, don't go there.

Diamonds pass through a lot of hands before making it to the retail customer, and everybody along the line takes their slice of the profit pie.  Unless it's a rare colour, anything under a carat isn't considered investment size. Its simply the offcuts from bigger stones and the true value is a fraction of what the end retail price would indicate.

Just don't go there

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#11 2016-11-30 08:04:12

Roswell Crash Survivor
Silver Stacker
From: Zeta Reticuli
Registered: 2011-04-11
Posts: 1,951
Trades :   32 

Re: Diamonds

If you want to learn how the modern diamond industry works, go buy a copy of this chap's book.

The Heartless Stone by Tom Zoellner
Sub-title: "A Journey Through the World of Diamonds, Deceit, and Desire"

https://www.amazon.com/Heartless-Stone- … 8&qid=&sr=

It's non-fiction but written like a novel. Follows the entire supply chain from mining, smuggling, cutting, all the way until it ends up in a retail jeweler.

Plus the marketing that tries to fool the world into thinking diamonds are rare.

Last edited by Roswell Crash Survivor (2016-11-30 08:06:48)


The Roswell Crash Survivor

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#12 2016-11-30 08:44:33

RichardAL
Member
From: Perth, WA
Registered: 2015-08-18
Posts: 131
Trades :   15 

Re: Diamonds

Also worth a look:

"Diamond - The History of a Cold-Blooded Love Affair" by Matthew Hart, A Plume Book published first in September, 2002.

The subtitles of these books alone speak volumes. You don't even have to buy them, can grab them via the library.

In addition to outlining the development of the marketing shenanigans that currently rule this commodity, this particular volume details the hunt for diamond bearing kimberlite pipes throughout the cratonic regions of the world that followed the realisation that blue ground at depth could prove profitable as the ultimate source of gem quality diamonds (even so a particular kind of pipe that sampled close to a particular region of the mantle is required, ie 5 out of every 6 new pipes found would prove worthless - and so it has been).

Pearls have also, in essence, succumbed to the same fate.

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#13 2016-11-30 08:56:17

Phil_Stacker
Member
From: Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Registered: 2016-11-05
Posts: 266
Trades :   12 

Re: Diamonds

Plus "Fakes" can be made with increasing quality at decreasing price.  This is not true (practically) for pm.

If you want to invest in diamonds and make money, do it illegally, be part of the New York diamond sindicate or start a venture fooling people into increasing in diamonds.

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#14 2016-11-30 09:00:13

radiobirdman
Silver Stacker
Registered: 2011-04-25
Posts: 2,300
Trades :   59 

Re: Diamonds

Buy shares in a diamond mine, LOM on the asx has been doing alright

Last edited by radiobirdman (2016-11-30 09:00:37)

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#15 2016-11-30 13:54:42

sfstacker
Member
Registered: 2016-10-25
Posts: 384
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Re: Diamonds

Trust me. I know the whole diamond market is completely fabricated and the three major companies are owned by the same entity thus allowing them to compete with themselves and manipulate prices. This is the same argument I'll take to my grave in opposition to purchasing a diamond wedding ring if I ever get married.

But I'm not investing in these to make boatloads of cash. The concept would be as simple as bullion purchasing. Maybe in 5-10 years I can sell the things for a few bucks more than what I paid for them.

I think I'll stay away though. Too much negativity about them.

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#16 2016-11-30 13:58:44

Old Codger
Silver Stacker
Registered: 2011-05-13
Posts: 5,128

Re: Diamonds

".....are a girl's BEST friend"


"The Australian Labor Party is a democratic socialist party and has the objective of the democratic socialisation of industry, production, distribution and exchange, to the extent necessary to eliminate exploitation and other anti-social features in these fields."   -  ALP Constitution.

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#17 2016-11-30 19:53:33

REDBACK
Silver Stacker
From: Trump supporters matter
Registered: 2011-11-22
Posts: 3,313

Re: Diamonds

Huh!
Try using the diamonds are a scam logic on women and you'll be in for a rude shock!
When my wife and I got together at 30  I followed my early twenties moto of I'll buy you as much platinum,palladium,silver or gold jewellery as you want but you can forget about me buying a worthless rock!
When all her friends started flashing around their bling that resolve lasted about 4.5 seconds
Never really splashed out on expensive stones but the mass marketing has brainwashed many generations.
Save your money until such time as your pressured into wasting it wink

REDBACK


"Buy now Cry later!!"

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#18 2016-11-30 19:54:46

shinymetal
Member
From: victoria
Registered: 2012-10-28
Posts: 1,185
Trades :   39 

Re: Diamonds

This is unreal!! Diamond batteries that last 5000 years.
It came out in the last few days.
Way above my head and it could be a hoax, but i hope it's not.

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#19 2016-11-30 21:46:30

sfstacker
Member
Registered: 2016-10-25
Posts: 384
Trades :   

Re: Diamonds

shinymetal wrote:

This is unreal!! Diamond batteries that last 5000 years.
It came out in the last few days.
Way above my head and it could be a hoax, but i hope it's not.


Just no!

While on Earth the gravity forms quartz in the normal way that you would find it. If you CRUSH the crystal you also crush the crystalline structure of the crystal. Because the structure is disfigured it causes any electromagnetic waves that may have entered the crystal to then leave the crystal. This is because the way the structure is formed normally. It allows EM waves in but they bounce around at an angle that does not allow them to escape. Inversely if you put Quartz in a vacuum it will STRETCH the crystalline structure which will then allow more EM waves to flow into it.

This is called paso electricity. And by a batteries technical definition you could call quartz crystal a battery of sorts.

Diamonds on the other hand do not have the same structure.

Just google crystalline structure of quartz for the source of information. However, I found this information in a book that was an encyclopedia of rocks and gemstones in case anyone is interested in my source.

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#20 2016-11-30 21:52:09

Jislizard
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2011-04-07
Posts: 7,471
Trades :   57 

Re: Diamonds

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc … nd/304575/

Have you ever tried to sell a diamond?

A bit of a read and a bit old but if you are looking at investing then the more you read the better.


Now stacking: World Junk Silver Coins.
Swap your older, worn, dirty fractional silver coins for fiat, .999 rounds or legal tender. 
Individual coins, mixed lots or bulk. 
Not looking for Australian, bent, holed or damaged coins, thanks!

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#21 2016-11-30 23:56:58

Phil_Stacker
Member
From: Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Registered: 2016-11-05
Posts: 266
Trades :   12 

Re: Diamonds

Diamond may be hard, but not dense, and it's density that is important with radiation (hence lead vests - not "ceramic" vests).

Their science is fundamentally flawed on so many levels it isn't funny.  Thinking that heating graphite will release just carbon 14 and not carbon 13 is silly.  Thinking that carbon 14 can produce usable volumes of electricity is crazy (like a radiation inducing "battery" on a Mars over).  What is the electrical antenna?  Or do they hook the diamond up to a mini steam engine (which is how a normal nuclear reactor works).

Diamonds aren't made easily, and only form a correct 3 dimensional lattice because they are carbon 13 and pull hydrogen electrons from each other at just the right strength to from a giant molecule (a pure diamond is, there fore a pure molecule).  Carbon 14, which is 1/14 heavier (due to an extra neutron), but unstable (meaning the inner nucleus bulges) means a different electron probability field (same number of required electrons but their cloud formation is different.  Given a mixture of 13 and 14 I doubt a diamond would be easy to form (like slightly different sized leggo blocks.

This stinks of either someone pulling a prank or trying to scam someone.

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#22 2016-12-01 00:21:36

shinymetal
Member
From: victoria
Registered: 2012-10-28
Posts: 1,185
Trades :   39 

Re: Diamonds

Phil_Stacker wrote:

Diamond may be hard, but not dense, and it's density that is important with radiation (hence lead vests - not "ceramic" vests).

Their science is fundamentally flawed on so many levels it isn't funny.  Thinking that heating graphite will release just carbon 14 and not carbon 13 is silly.  Thinking that carbon 14 can produce usable volumes of electricity is crazy (like a radiation inducing "battery" on a Mars over).  What is the electrical antenna?  Or do they hook the diamond up to a mini steam engine (which is how a normal nuclear reactor works).

Diamonds aren't made easily, and only form a correct 3 dimensional lattice because they are carbon 13 and pull hydrogen electrons from each other at just the right strength to from a giant molecule (a pure diamond is, there fore a pure molecule).  Carbon 14, which is 1/14 heavier (due to an extra neutron), but unstable (meaning the inner nucleus bulges) means a different electron probability field (same number of required electrons but their cloud formation is different.  Given a mixture of 13 and 14 I doubt a diamond would be easy to form (like slightly different sized leggo blocks.

This stinks of either someone pulling a prank or trying to scam someone.


I was hoping that it wasn't a troll while thinking that it probably was. it would be awesome if some how it's true. wait for proof i suppose. might be a long wait tongue

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#23 2016-12-01 04:23:08

sfstacker
Member
Registered: 2016-10-25
Posts: 384
Trades :   

Re: Diamonds

shinymetal wrote:

I was hoping that it wasn't a troll while thinking that it probably was. it would be awesome if some how it's true. wait for proof i suppose. might be a long wait tongue

Wait for proof? I just explained to you how a rock can be used as a battery with my rant about quartz crystal. Quartz crystal can "store" energy because of how its formed. Diamonds don't have the same structure as quartz. You NEED that structure quartz has in order to have the electrical properties of a battery. So just dismiss anything that has to do with diamonds being claimed to be useful as batteries.

diamondquartz.jpg
Source:

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#24 2016-12-01 05:28:01

billybob888
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-01-08
Posts: 1,514
Trades :   154 

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#25 2016-12-01 05:32:57

Phil_Stacker
Member
From: Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Registered: 2016-11-05
Posts: 266
Trades :   12 

Re: Diamonds

I disagree on one point. Energy = mass * (speed of light  * speed of light).

Therefore, carbon, like all matter, IS a state of energy. The energy in the flake of diamond on my gem eye dragon coin has enough energy to power the world for years (I didn't bother doing the calcs but given a hydrogen bomb that creates helium (fusion) releases less than 0.01% of energy, and a that's the sun... chances are a chemical 13-14 times larger would have a net total off enough to blow up the planet.

This is easily done too - simply create anti-matter carbon, combine it with matter carbon and bang - no one is your uncle.

Okay... creating anti-matter isn't simple....

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