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#51 2016-11-21 16:51:47

Old Codger
Silver Stacker
Registered: 2011-05-13
Posts: 5,128

Re: Universal basic income

SC,

"and the money has to come from somewhere."

This problem is EASILY fixed!

As illustrated by governments around the world,  and in the fair city of Melbourne, you simply BORROW it or PRINT it!

OC


"The Australian Labor Party is a democratic socialist party and has the objective of the democratic socialisation of industry, production, distribution and exchange, to the extent necessary to eliminate exploitation and other anti-social features in these fields."   -  ALP Constitution.

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#52 2016-11-21 17:10:58

Ouch
Member
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2010-11-16
Posts: 1,098
Trades :   29 

Re: Universal basic income

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Ouch wrote:

The extreme scenario is that eventually the only human aspect in the production chain will only be on the consumption end. Now you see why a universal basic income is needed even when we have not reached that extreme?

No.

The time will come when it will be pointless to insist that humans must first be productive and earn before being able to consume. Automation will be doing all the producing and humans the consuming. Human work will no longer be about producing something and getting paid for it but will instead become getting paid to be a consumer.  Better?

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#53 2016-11-21 17:18:14

Old Codger
Silver Stacker
Registered: 2011-05-13
Posts: 5,128

Re: Universal basic income

INSANE!


"The Australian Labor Party is a democratic socialist party and has the objective of the democratic socialisation of industry, production, distribution and exchange, to the extent necessary to eliminate exploitation and other anti-social features in these fields."   -  ALP Constitution.

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#54 2016-11-21 17:20:23

Phil_Stacker
Member
From: Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Registered: 2016-11-05
Posts: 266
Trades :   12 

Re: Universal basic income

You lot are right.  Anything taxed is impeded - tax companies for employing people  (payroll tax) the companies will employ less people.  Anything provide in money incentivises, so subsidies for apprentices increases hiring of apprentices.

So money for doing nothing will (already does) give people the incentive to do nothing.

You say welfare is big.  It is larger than health, education and defence put together. WTF?

That is not sustainable.

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#55 2016-11-21 18:29:58

JulieW
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2010-10-14
Posts: 11,132

Re: Universal basic income

O.C. you'll like this. (Shiney too I'd think)

An old CPA saying:

The government will do everything in its power to help the working man better himself,

except get off his bloody back.

Told me by an old bolshevik I knew who was in the party until Uncle Joe died, the truth came out and he had his rethink.

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#56 2016-11-21 18:52:15

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 16,000
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Universal basic income

Ouch wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:
Ouch wrote:

The extreme scenario is that eventually the only human aspect in the production chain will only be on the consumption end. Now you see why a universal basic income is needed even when we have not reached that extreme?

No.

The time will come when it will be pointless to insist that humans must first be productive and earn before being able to consume. Automation will be doing all the producing and humans the consuming. Human work will no longer be about producing something and getting paid for it but will instead become getting paid to be a consumer.  Better?

No. Because someone has to build the robots, maintain the robots, deliver the goods they are producing, dispose of the waste, account for the finances etc and they're not going to do it unless those that consume can offer something of value in return and the only way that that can happen is if consumers are also productive.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#57 2016-11-21 18:53:09

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 16,000
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Universal basic income

753_t3_5e536p.png


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#58 2016-11-21 19:52:31

radiobirdman
Silver Stacker
Registered: 2011-04-25
Posts: 2,300
Trades :   59 

Re: Universal basic income

mmm....shiney! so we abolish the minimum wage, what level of pay do you consider to be reasonable  to eat, clothe, shelter, pay bills , to have some sort of life a bit better than a slave.

Is it ,3,4,or $5 per hour

would the worker be able to consume anything but the basic needs.

Would there be overtime at a higher rate?

How many hours would the working week be?

Would you keep unemployment benefits @$250 per week?

Would the low paid get some form of government assistance?

These and many more questions need to be answered before Id vote for you as minister for the not so bright

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#59 2016-11-21 20:24:45

bordsilver
Silver Stacker
From: The rocks
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 9,610
Trades :   36 

Re: Universal basic income

I am fully in favour of a basic income but don't believe it should be supplied by a government.


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

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#60 2016-11-21 20:29:14

bordsilver
Silver Stacker
From: The rocks
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 9,610
Trades :   36 

Re: Universal basic income

Just like Labor MP Andrew Leigh, I have no problem with unpaid internships (and indeed, I have been one).


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

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#61 2016-11-21 20:47:47

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 16,000
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Universal basic income

radiobirdman wrote:

mmm....shiney! so we abolish the minimum wage, what level of pay do you consider to be reasonable  to eat, clothe, shelter, pay bills , to have some sort of life a bit better than a slave.

Is it ,3,4,or $5 per hour

That would entirely depend upon the worker and employer and the way they make subjective value judgments.


radiobirdman wrote:

would the worker be able to consume anything but the basic needs.

See above.

radiobirdman wrote:

Would there be overtime at a higher rate?

See above.

radiobirdman wrote:

How many hours would the working week be?

See above.

radiobirdman wrote:

Would you keep unemployment benefits @$250 per week?

That would depend upon the how government is structured.

radiobirdman wrote:

Would the low paid get some form of government assistance?

See above.

The point is radiobirdman that I can't answer any of those questions on behalf of anyone else, yet we have a group of politicians and bureaucrats who believe they can. It is impossible for anyone to know with certainty what is in the best interest of another, or make economic decisions on behalf of another, so I wouldn't be canvassing your vote any way because I wouldn't be running for PM in the first place.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#62 2016-11-21 21:01:23

Jislizard
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2011-04-07
Posts: 7,479
Trades :   57 

Re: Universal basic income

I say go for it.

It is not like money is real anymore, it isn't made of gold or silver, the majority of it isn't even made of metal or paper/plastic. Most money is electronic. And if Banks can magically make more money for their own profit then they can make it for everyone else's benefit instead.

If I had to be taxed to give people a universal basic income then I would be against it, but if you want to give them pretend money then go ahead.

It might drop the buying power of that money but I will also get an increase in my wages to the same extent so it won't bother me over much.

If it means we have more arts degrees then fine, I like paintings, I like novels, I like music and films. If people are doing what they love doing rather than throwing away their only 80 years of their life doing some McJob because they are in a system that you can't opt out of then double fine.

I have been doing a job I no longer care about for the last few years because I have a mortgage to pay off and food to put on the table. My unfinished novel sits on one of my old hard drives and looks destined never to be finished, a loss to the world. My paint brushes sit unused in the shed because after work I don't have the enthusiasm to pick them up. I have two days a week to do all my banking, shopping and cleaning and if there is any time at the end, I can do something interesting. It is not even as if the job I am doing is particularly necessary, a couple of good computer programs would see me out of work in no time.

We have done really well guilt tripping people into crap jobs because of the idea that if you work hard and live within your means you will be rewarded when you retire. This is not true, the people who do well in life are the people who take risks, engage in fraud and rip others off, or have a genuine passion and start their own businesses, not working for someone else. Most people working for 60 years will come out of it with very little real wealth, probably a load of debt and some job related illness that will ensure that they don't have too long to enjoy their retirement.

On top of my job I have several rental properties just so that when it comes time to retire I will have something put aside, so I am spending most of my money on servicing those houses so that sometime in the future I might get some sort of return. I certainly don't have a passion for housing.

If someone rejects that way of life then I can't fault them their logic.

I just don't want to pay for them to do nothing while I chose to continue on the self destructive 'career' I have chosen for myself. If someone else wants to pay them to do nothing then I have fewer objections.

Currently we have a system where people are put off of working because working is tedious. The government goes out of its way to make jobs just to cut down unemployment, not because the jobs need to be done. Why would anyone chose to stack shelves or serve burgers (both jobs I have done in the past) They didn't develop me as a person, they didn't enrich my life, they just paid for a roof over my head and the petrol to get to work. If I hadn't quit and gone to Uni I would still be there, making a subsistence living.

Give people some pretend money, let them explore other possibilities without the risk of starving or being homeless.

Some people will want to buy a fast car or go on holidays and they will work so they can reach those goals.

Some people will have a passion and they will turn that into their life's work, just look at Kickstarter and all the people with great ideas who are looking at ways of leaving their 9 to 5 jobs and heading out on their own.

Some people will be happy to stack shelves and flip burgers but may only want to work for three days a week and spend the rest of their time enjoying their life while they are still young enough to do so.

Mother or fathers might decide that they are gong to spend more time at home with their families and actually build the family unit up rather than having it falling apart. Maybe one parent will stay at home full time, making decent meals instead of McD's dollar burgers.

Parents might decide that they can afford to have and enjoy another child, maybe the birthrate will go up.

Maybe some people will drop a day at work and decide to go down the gym, or volunteer.

And some people will sit on their backsides all day and make that basic wage their only income, but how is that any different to what we have now?

On a side note I have a friend who works in Government Finance. He gets paid by one government department and then has tax taken away by another government department, the money has to go through several processes before it comes to him. If the government just paid him a wage less the money it was going to take out in tax and didn't take any tax then he would still have the same amount of money but it would be a more efficient system.

It is obvious that the system we have is not the final version, it is not finished yet, it still has a lot more work to be done on it before it is perfected. The system has to change because that is how evolution works, things get better as the mistakes are fixed.

TL:DR

The most important goal of our lives is that we should make the best use of the few years we have on this planet. Spending 60% of those years doing something that doesn't interest you is a waste of the most precious resource you have.

Money was invented by mankind as a useful tool and now it has become a method of enslavement. Sadly most people have invested so much of their life accumulating it that they won't be letting go of it no matter how unhappy it makes them.


Now stacking: World Junk Silver Coins.
Swap your older, worn, dirty fractional silver coins for fiat, .999 rounds or legal tender. 
Individual coins, mixed lots or bulk. 
Not looking for Australian, bent, holed or damaged coins, thanks!

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#63 2016-11-21 21:07:28

SteveS
Member
From: Brisbane
Registered: 2016-08-06
Posts: 955
Trades :   

Re: Universal basic income

OK, so we raise the minimum wage to, say $35K per year. That would mean that the easiest job in any company, with no responsibility, so skills or experience required and easy hours earns $35K. Let's say this is the guy who sweeps the car park.

When he isn't leaning on his sweeping brush, he reports to the handyman/gardener guy, only slightly more experienced than he. What do we pay him? He used to earn $34K but he has some responsibility and the sweeper guy is now paid more than him, so we'll give him a rise to $38K. The handyman reports to the Maintenance Supervisor who was earning $38K. Whoops, we can't pay him the same as the fella he supervises, so he gets an increase, too.

The supervisor reports to the Maintenance Manager.........


I intend to live forever. So far, so good.

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#64 2016-11-21 21:21:38

Jislizard
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2011-04-07
Posts: 7,479
Trades :   57 

Re: Universal basic income

SteveS wrote:

OK, so we raise the minimum wage to, say $35K per year. That would mean that the easiest job in any company, with no responsibility, so skills or experience required and easy hours earns $35K. Let's say this is the guy who sweeps the car park.

When he isn't leaning on his sweeping brush, he reports to the handyman/gardener guy, only slightly more experienced than he. What do we pay him? He used to earn $34K but he has some responsibility and the sweeper guy is now paid more than him, so we'll give him a rise to $38K. The handyman reports to the Maintenance Supervisor who was earning $38K. Whoops, we can't pay him the same as the fella he supervises, so he gets an increase, too.

The supervisor reports to the Maintenance Manager.........

I think it would be more likely that the car park sweeper would still get a subsistence wage but it would be supplemented by a universal basic income. or more likely, the subsistence wage would go down as the shortfall would be made up by the universal basic wage.

Either way, the car park sweeper is not going to be living the high life.


Now stacking: World Junk Silver Coins.
Swap your older, worn, dirty fractional silver coins for fiat, .999 rounds or legal tender. 
Individual coins, mixed lots or bulk. 
Not looking for Australian, bent, holed or damaged coins, thanks!

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#65 2016-11-21 21:37:07

Shaddam IV
Silver Stacker
From: House Corrino
Registered: 2010-03-22
Posts: 6,278

Re: Universal basic income

SteveS wrote:

OK, so we raise the minimum wage to, say $35K per year. That would mean that the easiest job in any company, with no responsibility, so skills or experience required and easy hours earns $35K. Let's say this is the guy who sweeps the car park.

When he isn't leaning on his sweeping brush, he reports to the handyman/gardener guy, only slightly more experienced than he. What do we pay him? He used to earn $34K but he has some responsibility and the sweeper guy is now paid more than him, so we'll give him a rise to $38K. The handyman reports to the Maintenance Supervisor who was earning $38K. Whoops, we can't pay him the same as the fella he supervises, so he gets an increase, too.

The supervisor reports to the Maintenance Manager.........

What would happen is that there would be no-one who would be bothered doing the minimum wage jobs and they simply would not get done. So if executives wanted their offices cleaned and their toilet rolls replenished they would have to do it themselves. You would have to walk your own dog and mow your own lawn and forget about having your pizzas delivered. Young people leaving school would have no real incentive to learn a trade or to learn workplace skills and what would then happen is pretty obvious.

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#66 2016-11-21 21:48:13

radiobirdman
Silver Stacker
Registered: 2011-04-25
Posts: 2,300
Trades :   59 

Re: Universal basic income

mmm....shiney! wrote:
radiobirdman wrote:

mmm....shiney! so we abolish the minimum wage, what level of pay do you consider to be reasonable  to eat, clothe, shelter, pay bills , to have some sort of life a bit better than a slave.

Is it ,3,4,or $5 per hour

That would entirely depend upon the worker and employer and the way they make subjective value judgments.


radiobirdman wrote:

would the worker be able to consume anything but the basic needs.

See above.

radiobirdman wrote:

Would there be overtime at a higher rate?

See above.

radiobirdman wrote:

How many hours would the working week be?

See above.

radiobirdman wrote:

Would you keep unemployment benefits @$250 per week?

That would depend upon the how government is structured.

radiobirdman wrote:

Would the low paid get some form of government assistance?

See above.

The point is radiobirdman that I can't answer any of those questions on behalf of anyone else, yet we have a group of politicians and bureaucrats who believe they can. It is impossible for anyone to know with certainty what is in the best interest of another, or make economic decisions on behalf of another, so I wouldn't be canvassing your vote any way because I wouldn't be running for PM in the first place.


Great answer as usual shiney ,it could be called work choices.

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#67 2016-11-21 21:57:18

Jislizard
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2011-04-07
Posts: 7,479
Trades :   57 

Re: Universal basic income

Shaddam IV wrote:
SteveS wrote:

OK, so we raise the minimum wage to, say $35K per year. That would mean that the easiest job in any company, with no responsibility, so skills or experience required and easy hours earns $35K. Let's say this is the guy who sweeps the car park.

When he isn't leaning on his sweeping brush, he reports to the handyman/gardener guy, only slightly more experienced than he. What do we pay him? He used to earn $34K but he has some responsibility and the sweeper guy is now paid more than him, so we'll give him a rise to $38K. The handyman reports to the Maintenance Supervisor who was earning $38K. Whoops, we can't pay him the same as the fella he supervises, so he gets an increase, too.

The supervisor reports to the Maintenance Manager.........

What would happen is that there would be no-one who would be bothered doing the minimum wage jobs and they simply would not get done. So if executives wanted their offices cleaned and their toilet rolls replenished they would have to do it themselves. You would have to walk your own dog and mow your own lawn and forget about having your pizzas delivered. Young people leaving school would have no real incentive to learn a trade or to learn workplace skills and what would then happen is pretty obvious.

or....

If we discount 'delivering pizzas' as 'learning a trade', young people leaving school would have an incentive to follow a career in a field that they are interested in without having to settle for a McJob just to make ends meet.

Although it is great to have someone to do all the crap jobs we don't want to do with the added bonus that we don't even have to pay them much, it would be much better for the country as a whole if they were out learning how to do something like write computer programs or build robots or see the world.

On a side note I already clean my office in the education centre, empty the bins, clean the fridge out, load and empty the dishwasher and wipe down the tables and whiteboards while I go about the rest of my business, it isn't difficult, just time consuming, and I get paid by the hour anyway. It is just built into my job.


Now stacking: World Junk Silver Coins.
Swap your older, worn, dirty fractional silver coins for fiat, .999 rounds or legal tender. 
Individual coins, mixed lots or bulk. 
Not looking for Australian, bent, holed or damaged coins, thanks!

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#68 2016-11-21 22:02:54

Phil_Stacker
Member
From: Brisbane, QLD, Australia
Registered: 2016-11-05
Posts: 266
Trades :   12 

Re: Universal basic income

It sounds like some people like some parts of a free market (no constraints on minimums, no handouts, no protection on industries), while other people like some parts of a controlled market (minimum wage, welfare, protection on important industries).

Arguing the edges doesn't achieve much, finding our common ground would be more helpful.... but as I say, I can't even resolve my own common ground - where I sit in the balance of open market and controlled market.

I HATE being bipolar, IT'S GREAT!

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#69 2016-11-21 22:08:42

betterlatethannever
Banned
From: Boganstan
Registered: 2016-09-13
Posts: 503

Re: Universal basic income

mmm....shiney! wrote:

It's about creating a new generation that are dependent on government largesse.

Frigging absurd idea - pay someone to do nothing or produce something no one wants. hmm

Bearing in mind that this was stated a few weeks back (from??) that 40% of jobs (all types or ??) will be gone in 10 years  hmm

So the more inequality for whatever reason keeping and growing the great divide will well divide us more.

You won't want to go to work "knowing" that "I am" going to break into your castle and steal well everything  tongue

"Jobs for jobs sake" well maybe  wink 

The worlds economy is false now anyway so no difference really,look at the record US stock market and all other "first world" markets printing $$$$ and putting it straight into their pockets,good work if you can get it  roll

Last edited by betterlatethannever (2016-11-21 22:10:29)


SPECIAL NOTE - Supporting The Nation Of Israel 100% Of The Time 100% - Shalom.

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#70 2016-11-21 22:16:30

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 16,000
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Universal basic income

betterlatethannever wrote:

So the more inequality for whatever reason keeping and growing the great divide will well divide us more.

There's nothing wrong with wealth inequality, attempting to reduce or eradicate wealth inequality by offering free money would create more harm than good.

betterlatethannever wrote:

worlds economy is false now anyway so no difference really,look at the record US stock market and all other "first world" markets printing $$$$ and putting it straight into their pockets,good work if you can get it  roll

Actually I disagree. How can you have a false economy? North Korea has a real economy, communist Russia had a real economy, socialist Denmark has a real economy. The difference is the level of interference in the market. We have a very much real and living economy consisting of millions of individuals going about their days interacting with others in order to seek value. What we do have is a distorted economy though. Therefore, adding more distortions would have an even greater impact on our economic relationships.  smile

Edit to add: it's not pretend money nor is it a pretend economy.

Last edited by mmm....shiney! (2016-11-21 22:17:37)


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#71 2016-11-21 22:19:34

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 16,000
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Universal basic income

Phil_Stacker wrote:

Arguing the edges doesn't achieve much, finding our common ground would be more helpful.... but as I say, I can't even resolve my own common ground - where I sit in the balance of open market and controlled market.

Compromise: when you end up being forced to accept someone else's shit.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#72 2016-11-21 22:28:07

betterlatethannever
Banned
From: Boganstan
Registered: 2016-09-13
Posts: 503

Re: Universal basic income

mmm....shiney! wrote:
betterlatethannever wrote:

So the more inequality for whatever reason keeping and growing the great divide will well divide us more.

There's nothing wrong with wealth inequality, attempting to reduce or eradicate wealth inequality by offering free money would create more harm than good.

betterlatethannever wrote:

worlds economy is false now anyway so no difference really,look at the record US stock market and all other "first world" markets printing $$$$ and putting it straight into their pockets,good work if you can get it  roll

Actually I disagree. How can you have a false economy? North Korea has a real economy, communist Russia had a real economy, socialist Denmark has a real economy. The difference is the level of interference in the market. We have a very much real and living economy consisting of millions of individuals going about their days interacting with others in order to seek value. What we do have is a distorted economy though. Therefore, adding more distortions would have an even greater impact on our economic relationships.  smile

Edit to add: it's not pretend money nor is it a pretend economy.

# as you are entitled to do.

# record high stock markets with NO GROWTH

# I think that you are not wearing ROSE coloured glasses but RED ones seeing it through China's eyes being on the go go all day everyday - but I could be wrong (only on this point)

The world is one huge $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ bubble and growing and "everyone" is looking to each other to fix it with us/me being way too busy  wink


SPECIAL NOTE - Supporting The Nation Of Israel 100% Of The Time 100% - Shalom.

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#73 2016-11-21 22:28:52

Jislizard
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2011-04-07
Posts: 7,479
Trades :   57 

Re: Universal basic income

mmm....shiney! wrote:
betterlatethannever wrote:

So the more inequality for whatever reason keeping and growing the great divide will well divide us more.

There's nothing wrong with wealth inequality, attempting to reduce or eradicate wealth inequality by offering free money would create more harm than good.

betterlatethannever wrote:

worlds economy is false now anyway so no difference really,look at the record US stock market and all other "first world" markets printing $$$$ and putting it straight into their pockets,good work if you can get it  roll

Actually I disagree. How can you have a false economy? North Korea has a real economy, communist Russia had a real economy, socialist Denmark has a real economy. The difference is the level of interference in the market. We have a very much real and living economy consisting of millions of individuals going about their days interacting with others in order to seek value. What we do have is a distorted economy though. Therefore, adding more distortions would have an even greater impact on our economic relationships.  smile

Edit to add: it's not pretend money nor is it a pretend economy.

Money can be made...

1. As reward for your labour
2. or at the stroke of a keyboard.

If someone can just make money without needing to labour for it then why would anyone want to work? Can we say $10 is worth an hour of my labour and then produce $10 without anyone having to work for it and still insist that both $10 are worth the same?

Can we sell more silver than exists? Can we sell silver which hasn't been dug out of the ground yet?

If not false, it certainly sounds dodgy.

I am sure these countries used to have real economies, they had oil reserves or gold to back their currency. But with all these countries running a deficit (to who?), and big deficits, with debt 'ceilings' that have been raised 74 times since 1962, and ideas like having a 1 trillion Dollar platinum coin to pay off the debt etc. They certainly don't sound real. As long as we all play along though...


Now stacking: World Junk Silver Coins.
Swap your older, worn, dirty fractional silver coins for fiat, .999 rounds or legal tender. 
Individual coins, mixed lots or bulk. 
Not looking for Australian, bent, holed or damaged coins, thanks!

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#74 2016-11-21 22:29:47

Shaddam IV
Silver Stacker
From: House Corrino
Registered: 2010-03-22
Posts: 6,278

Re: Universal basic income

Jislizard wrote:
Shaddam IV wrote:
SteveS wrote:

OK, so we raise the minimum wage to, say $35K per year. That would mean that the easiest job in any company, with no responsibility, so skills or experience required and easy hours earns $35K. Let's say this is the guy who sweeps the car park.

When he isn't leaning on his sweeping brush, he reports to the handyman/gardener guy, only slightly more experienced than he. What do we pay him? He used to earn $34K but he has some responsibility and the sweeper guy is now paid more than him, so we'll give him a rise to $38K. The handyman reports to the Maintenance Supervisor who was earning $38K. Whoops, we can't pay him the same as the fella he supervises, so he gets an increase, too.

The supervisor reports to the Maintenance Manager.........

What would happen is that there would be no-one who would be bothered doing the minimum wage jobs and they simply would not get done. So if executives wanted their offices cleaned and their toilet rolls replenished they would have to do it themselves. You would have to walk your own dog and mow your own lawn and forget about having your pizzas delivered. Young people leaving school would have no real incentive to learn a trade or to learn workplace skills and what would then happen is pretty obvious.

or....

If we discount 'delivering pizzas' as 'learning a trade', young people leaving school would have an incentive to follow a career in a field that they are interested in without having to settle for a McJob just to make ends meet.

Although it is great to have someone to do all the crap jobs we don't want to do with the added bonus that we don't even have to pay them much, it would be much better for the country as a whole if they were out learning how to do something like write computer programs or build robots or see the world.

On a side note I already clean my office in the education centre, empty the bins, clean the fridge out, load and empty the dishwasher and wipe down the tables and whiteboards while I go about the rest of my business, it isn't difficult, just time consuming, and I get paid by the hour anyway. It is just built into my job.

I think that you have more faith in human nature than I do. big_smile

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#75 2016-11-21 22:32:58

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Universal basic income

Jislizard wrote:

Money can be made...

1. As reward for your labour
2. or at the stroke of a keyboard.

If it's 1. then wealth is enhanced for all. If it's 2 then wealth is destroyed for all.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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