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  • » Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

#1 2016-11-14 17:35:57

placeholderz
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Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

Hi. First time poster. My circumstances are below:

About $60,000 in superannuation, currently with an industry fund. All sitting in cash. Would like to convert it to 1 x 1kg gold bar and the rest into 1kg silver bars.

$60000 would be about 1 x 1kg gold bar and 10 x 1 kg silver bars at current prices.

My priority is the 1 kg gold bar. I could do with a few less or more silver bars depending on the buy price when I execute the buy (hopefully in the next month or two).

I would like to open and Esuperfund. Buy the bars at ABC bullion, then store them at Custodian Vaults. I'm in Sydney so Custodian Vault seems like a good choice in terms of logistics.



Question:

Is this feasible?

How much would it cost me total for the setup? Is this estimate correct:
$400 setup esuperfund
$200 ATO compliance per year
$252 per year storage Custodian Vaults for a small box capable of storing up to 15kg
$??? - fee per year for Custodian Vault to create inventory report
$??? - additional insurance by Custodian Vault above $10,000 value?

Any other fees or hurdles I should be concerned about?

Thank you in advance for your advice.

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#2 2016-11-14 17:59:10

House
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

What age are you and why the whole lot into PM's?


WBI- 41.16

"There's no point in paying a mortgage on an asset that is going to fall by 40 per cent or so in the next few years". Steve Keen, 2008.
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#3 2016-11-14 18:01:50

placeholderz
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

Early 30's. The whole lot in PM's because I just became a gold bug and, having read Jim Rickards, I don't think I can trust other financial assets at this juncture. I give it five years before I give up and might go back to an index fund or whatever. But for now, I have strong desire to be in physical.

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#4 2016-11-14 19:07:30

Monsta
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

Without trying to give financial advice, have you considered some other options other than going moving everything into metal? It personally worries me when people get the bug and move everything into it, it's like they are moving from being totally in the darkness and then wanting to only be in the light. There is a large chance that you can make a mistimed move and it ends up costing you money.

May I suggest going a percentage into metals with an SMSF, along with some shares and possibly some ETF/managed fund component also. Keep a foot in both camps if you can - you can get some very good dividend stocks at the moment which easily return 8-10%. While we may see rises in the POG over time, it is only maintaining the buying power of your capital. Superannuation will need some sort of capital growth in order for it to be worthwhile when you retire.

There are also options like FirstGold that have the metal in your name, are SMSF compliant and you can purchase metals there over time. You can obviously maintain a cash balance and try to buy in the dips wherever possible. Disclosing I have an account there, and am very happy with it. The premium is lower than most unallocated programs, fees are very reasonable & are charged 1st April each year, and being in Sydney I can go and pick up the standard bars (1oz ABC Au, 1kg ABC Ag) for no barring charge. If you can use it to accumulate metal over the year and withdraw it to a Custodian Vault in March then the fees are even less.

As always, the above is not advice but only suggestion in order to make you think about it. I suggest that you get financial advice from a AFSP holder.


Opinions expressed are my own, correct, and generally unpopular with others. All rights reserved, some wrongs still available.
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#5 2016-11-14 19:41:52

placeholderz
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

Thanks for the concern Monsta. But I'm going all in on this and know the risks of going all in.

My goal is to have the PM in my possession. Can't be bothered to pick miners as I don't have the tools or know how for due diligence.

I'm open to suggestions for what kind of bullion other than 1 kg would be acceptable and cost efficient under SMSF rules.

I might even leave buying silver and have around $10-$15k in cash to buy the dips.

But let me be clear, no ETFs, stocks, indexes, or any other investment other than physical and cash for me at this juncture.

I prefer allocated to unallocated.

Thank you.

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#6 2016-11-14 20:03:43

SilverDJ
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From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

placeholderz wrote:

I would like to open and Esuperfund. Buy the bars at ABC bullion, then store them at Custodian Vaults. I'm in Sydney so Custodian Vault seems like a good choice in terms of logistics.

Esuperfund automatically set up a metal trading account for you. Easier to use that. You can buy serial numbered bars and have them stored. You can also buy coins and unallocated.
https://www.bullioncapital.com/
Zero paperwork that way, they handle all the compliance automatically.

Last edited by SilverDJ (2016-11-14 20:09:50)

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#7 2016-11-14 20:44:39

placeholderz
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

SilverDJ wrote:
placeholderz wrote:

I would like to open and Esuperfund. Buy the bars at ABC bullion, then store them at Custodian Vaults. I'm in Sydney so Custodian Vault seems like a good choice in terms of logistics.

Esuperfund automatically set up a metal trading account for you. Easier to use that. You can buy serial numbered bars and have them stored. You can also buy coins and unallocated.
https://www.bullioncapital.com/
Zero paperwork that way, they handle all the compliance automatically.

Don't have experience and never heard of Bullion Capital. I feel more comfortable buying gold from Perth Mint or ABC as I've used them before and have account with them.

Can I use Perth Mint or ABC with Esuperfund?

There's also option of Superannuation Accounting witch ABC partnered with. Anybody have experience with them?

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#8 2016-11-14 22:11:05

SilverDJ
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From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

placeholderz wrote:

Don't have experience and never heard of Bullion Capital. I feel more comfortable buying gold from Perth Mint or ABC as I've used them before and have account with them.
Can I use Perth Mint or ABC with Esuperfund?

Yes, you can use anyone you like, you can even buy the physical gold yourself and bury it in your backyard if you want. You just have to manually account for it at the end of the year compliance time. i.e. scan in receipts and statements etc and submit them.
If you use eSuperfunds preferred BullionCapital then your info automatically gets transformed to them come tax time it's a few minutes works.
You most likely have to set up another account with Perth Mint or ABC under your SMSF name and ABN number, I would not use your existing personal account, that gets messy and may infringe upon the SMSF about personal use.
http://www.perthmintbullion.com/mobile/ … _SMSF.aspx

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#9 2016-11-14 22:12:02

SilverDJ
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From: Australia
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Posts: 2,488

Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

placeholderz wrote:

Can I use Perth Mint or ABC with Esuperfund?

BTW, I'd use Perth Mint over ABC, they are government guaranteed.

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#10 2016-11-14 22:24:43

placeholderz
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

SilverDJ wrote:
placeholderz wrote:

Don't have experience and never heard of Bullion Capital. I feel more comfortable buying gold from Perth Mint or ABC as I've used them before and have account with them.
Can I use Perth Mint or ABC with Esuperfund?

Yes, you can use anyone you like, you can even buy the physical gold yourself and bury it in your backyard if you want. You just have to manually account for it at the end of the year compliance time. i.e. scan in receipts and statements etc and submit them.

Isn't insurance and proof of secure storage required for the audit documents?

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#11 2016-11-14 22:29:05

SilverDJ
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From: Australia
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

placeholderz wrote:

Isn't insurance and proof of secure storage required for the audit documents?

Not for bullion, only for "collectibles" like some coins and art etc.
All you have to do is note down your investment strategy and in a company minute just note the reason why you are going to bury your bullion in the backyard and that you understand the risks and they are acceptable to you.
Good thing about the SMSF is that you as the director get to decide how to invest your money and the risks you take.

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#12 2016-11-14 22:40:47

placeholderz
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

SilverDJ wrote:
placeholderz wrote:

Isn't insurance and proof of secure storage required for the audit documents?

Not for bullion, only for "collectibles" like some coins and art etc.
All you have to do is note down your investment strategy and in a company minute just note the reason why you are going to bury your bullion in the backyard and that you understand the risks and they are acceptable to you.
Good thing about the SMSF is that you as the director get to decide how to invest your money and the risks you take.


Wowza I didn't know this. Thanks for your responses by the way you've been most helpful. So my most cost effective option is:
- go with Esuperfund for setup, wait a few weeks
- transfer money from my current super to SMSF
- buy 1 kg bullion from Perth Mint. What do you think of buying 1 kg from ABC? I've only bought ounces from them.
- store it with Custodian Vault for $250 a year
- come audit/reporting time, just declare that the bullion is at Custodian Vault. Do I need a declaration from Custodian Vault or will a simple note do?

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#13 2016-11-14 22:54:48

SilverDJ
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From: Australia
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Posts: 2,488

Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

placeholderz wrote:

Wowza I didn't know this.

Yep, it's pretty cool.
https://www.esuperfund.com.au/other-ass … w-it-works

Storage Rules
Clients who purchase Physical Metals with BCL are permitted to store the Physical Metals with BCL or take physical delivery of the Physical Metals.  It is noted that Metals purchased through BCL that are deemed to be collectables (such as coins) must be stored with BCL and clients cannot take physical delivery of these Metals.  This restriction is a legal restriction imposed by Super Laws which disallow a SMSF taking Physical delivery of Collectables.  More about Collectables can be found here.
Where allowed and your Fund takes physical delivery of the Physical Metals and stores them in a home safe the reasons for doing so will need to be included in the Purchase Minute prepared when purchasing the metal (see below).

and

It is at your discretion as the SMSF Trustee as to whether you insure the Physical Metals. It is however preferred that the Physical Metals are insured. Physical Metals purchased and stored through BCL are fully insured. To the extent that the Physical Metals are stored in a home safe it is strongly recommended that they are insured. If they are not insured, again you must minute why you have elected not to insure the Physical Metals.  It is noted that Collectables must be insured by law.

A "minute" is simply a single paragraph document signed by the trustee (i.e. you) stating whatever you want to state. The reason can be as crazy you want, it's the ATO's role to determine if you are making a wise or sane decision.
You then scan it and upload to esuperfund.

It is entirely legal to buy bullion and keep under your matress. When it comes to bullion, the ATO "ain't your mummy".

Thanks for your responses by the way you've been most helpful. So my most cost effective option is:
- go with Esuperfund for setup, wait a few weeks
- transfer money from my current super to SMSF

Yep, sign the docs and few weeks later you have a company ABN and bank account set up for you.
Then just use the normal super fund transfer form and the money is in your bank account and it feel sweet big_smile

- buy 1 kg bullion from Perth Mint. What do you think of buying 1 kg from ABC? I've only bought ounces from them.

If you are buying physical and taking delivery then I'd simply buy ounces, as then you can sell a few ounces later if you want/have to, not the whole kg.

- store it with Custodian Vault for $250 a year

Perth Mint Depository would be cheaper I think? And easier to buy/sell at a moments notice?

- come audit/reporting time, just declare that the bullion is at Custodian Vault. Do I need a declaration from Custodian Vault or will a simple note do?

I've only used bullion capital, so it was automatic.
But come yearly compliance time the esuperfund system is completely online and automated. The system will know you transfered $$$$$ to Perth/mint/ABC and they will ask you to upload evidence of what it will be used for so it can be categorised. You would upload the buy statement from PM/ABC, I don't think they's care about a Custodian vault statement.

Don't forget to leave some money in the bank account to cover the yearly compliance fees and tax. You don't normally see tax on your managed super, so it comes as a surprise.
I think the first years at esuperfund is still free?

Last edited by SilverDJ (2016-11-14 22:58:08)

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#14 2016-11-14 23:37:00

placeholderz
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

SilverDJ wrote:
placeholderz wrote:

Wowza I didn't know this.

It is entirely legal to buy bullion and keep under your matress. When it comes to bullion, the ATO "ain't your mummy".

Do you say it IS the ATOs role to determine if you made a sane decision? Or did you mean it ISN'T the ATOs role?

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#15 2016-11-14 23:38:17

Monsta
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

placeholderz wrote:

Thanks for the concern Monsta. But I'm going all in on this and know the risks of going all in.

My goal is to have the PM in my possession. Can't be bothered to pick miners as I don't have the tools or know how for due diligence.

No worries - it is your choice, just have to say it then I have a clear conscience.

You don't need a vault account if you maintain it via eSuperfund metals account or a Perth Mint Depository account. Far eaiser to sell as already mentioned.


Opinions expressed are my own, correct, and generally unpopular with others. All rights reserved, some wrongs still available.
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#16 2016-11-14 23:52:32

House
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

placeholderz wrote:

Early 30's. The whole lot in PM's because I just became a gold bug and, having read Jim Rickards, I don't think I can trust other financial assets at this juncture. I give it five years before I give up and might go back to an index fund or whatever. But for now, I have strong desire to be in physical.

Five years ago I was pretty much in the exact situation, reading Rickards etc and going to go all in... Until someone wiser and far wealthier told me not to. So very, very glad I heeded that advice. But good luck smile


WBI- 41.16

"There's no point in paying a mortgage on an asset that is going to fall by 40 per cent or so in the next few years". Steve Keen, 2008.
Stacker FAQ'S. New threads welcome- http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic- … faq-s.html

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#17 2016-11-15 00:09:36

SteveS
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

One word: diversify!


I intend to live forever. So far, so good.

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#18 2016-11-15 00:20:48

Bullion Baron
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

Have you costed up the difference between a SMSF vs a super fund that allows you buy a physically backed ETF such as PMGOLD?

https://www.perthmint.com/storage/perth … d-asx.html

I know it's not physical per se, but is fully backed, government guaranteed and redeemable (although probably not if purchased in super).

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#19 2016-11-15 02:38:19

SilverDJ
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From: Australia
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

placeholderz wrote:
SilverDJ wrote:
placeholderz wrote:

Wowza I didn't know this.

It is entirely legal to buy bullion and keep under your matress. When it comes to bullion, the ATO "ain't your mummy".

Do you say it IS the ATOs role to determine if you made a sane decision? Or did you mean it ISN'T the ATOs role?

I meant it's not their role. They can have no say in how you store your bullion, nor do they care or have a say in how bad your investment decisions are, as long as you document the reasons why. Those reasons can be as crazy as you like, The illuminati, UFO's, Mad Max armageddon etc, they can't stop you using that as a reason. SMSF investment strategy plans are not vetted by the ATO for being sound of mind.

https://www.esuperfund.com.au/investmen … t-strategy

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#20 2016-11-15 02:42:12

SilverDJ
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From: Australia
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

SilverDJ wrote:

- store it with Custodian Vault for $250 a year

Perth Mint Depository would be cheaper I think? And easier to buy/sell at a moments notice?

Not cheaper actually.
https://www.perthmint.com/storage/pricing.html
1% per year storage fee. So $500 for $50k worth of metal, that's a lot.

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#21 2016-11-15 02:46:01

SilverDJ
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From: Australia
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Posts: 2,488

Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

Bullion Baron wrote:

Have you costed up the difference between a SMSF vs a super fund that allows you buy a physically backed ETF such as PMGOLD?

The SMSF will cost:
https://www.esuperfund.com.au/fees/fee- … e/new-smsf

$800 + $259 + $250 storage = $1309 a year. Not including the metal buy charge.
On a $60k fund that is 2.18% a year.

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#22 2016-11-15 02:50:20

SilverDJ
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

House wrote:

Five years ago I was pretty much in the exact situation, reading Rickards etc and going to go all in... Until someone wiser and far wealthier told me not to. So very, very glad I heeded that advice. But good luck smile

I certainly agree with that sentiment, but in the current climate of record high share markets, record high property prices, and a grim looking global economy + a Trump wildcard, I wouldn't blame anyone for switching to all cash/metal for the next few years.
Upside is if GFC2 happens you'll have plenty of cash to buy bargains.
Downside if you might miss a continued bull run and short term compounded returns.

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#23 2016-11-15 07:24:30

Phil_Stacker
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

There are a sector of people who think like Rickards... and if everyone is thinking alike, then someone's not thinking.

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#24 2016-11-15 07:59:57

REDBACK
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

Go all in~
Why not?
Don't stand to loose much
The climate of property bubble and a crashing AUD dollar would put you in a sound financial position all the while holding physical gold and silver.
The only thing I would suggest is keep your holdings in smaller ..."divisions".. to improve your liquidity market and potential to diversify if the above crash.
Very easy to manage physical in your SMSF and an extremely low risk investment compared to other options at present.
Beware confirmation bias.
Good luck
REDBACK

Last edited by REDBACK (2016-11-15 16:04:26)


"Buy now Cry later!!"

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#25 2016-11-15 08:22:16

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Thinking about setting up Esuperfund + Custodian Vaults for $60,000 PM

Shop around for alternatives to eSuperfund. They have strict rules regarding compliance which are not consistently enforced, until the day they enforce them - and then it's see you later and you're left with "no correspondence will be entered into".

They are a budget mob who provide a budget service.


3<

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