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#1 2016-08-22 07:07:18

The Crow
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From: "The Place of Many Crows"
Registered: 2014-06-16
Posts: 875
Trades :   76 

Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

Sold a gold ingot on eBay for $400
Buyer has now done a chargeback.
Item was sent to exact address provided by PayPal and was picked up by person providing numbered ID (guessing a driver's licence).
PayPal have taken the money back from my account and charged a $15 fee on the basis that I didn't send it to the address provided, despite providing a photocopy of the postmarked sending reciept showing the address they provided to me and a copy of the signature provided at the LPO where it was picked up.
Any suggestions for a course of action????


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#2 2016-08-22 07:12:16

ozcopper
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From: Australia
Registered: 2009-07-16
Posts: 13,991
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Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

Wow that sux. I have had issues with Paypal in the past, I think the ACCC needs to look at them but doubt it will happen. Having proof of delivery and then doing a chargeback is plain wrong.

My issue was a chargeback on an English hallmarked item. They said it wasn't silver and Paypal found in their favour. Paypal staff like most of the public wouldn't know a precious metal if they tripped over it.

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#3 2016-08-22 07:15:14

Ipv6Ready
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From: North Sydney
Registered: 2016-01-08
Posts: 2,214
Trades :   39 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

That would sux.

But was it different to PayPal registered address?
If you have proof of that surely you can lodge an appeal.


WTB 4 to 6 grams of pure gold. Don't care if it is coin, bar or granules. Near spot, suits anyone who has been tempted to open a certicard or just have some granules to make a ring

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#4 2016-08-22 07:21:47

SilverDJ
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
Posts: 2,528

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

It's a known scam to exploit Ebay's "Buyer Protection" system like this. This is an Ebay driven thing and not really a PayPal thing.

As an ebay seller you must ensure that you:
a) Use sipping with a tracking code
and
b) Put the tracking code into the system

If you don't do this then it's trivial for them to exploit the buyer protection system. Buyer have more rights than sellers on Ebay.

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#5 2016-08-22 07:28:51

Midastouchofgold
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From: Sydney
Registered: 2016-07-19
Posts: 199
Trades :   21 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

Thats a joke. Call paypal, and talk to them. They might be more reasonable that way than via email. It would be good if you had of taken the money out of the account before paypal could debit it. Did you put the tracking number into the ebay system as someone else said?

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#6 2016-08-22 07:30:12

The Crow
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From: "The Place of Many Crows"
Registered: 2014-06-16
Posts: 875
Trades :   76 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

SilverDJ wrote:

It's a known scam to exploit Ebay's "Buyer Protection" system like this. This is an Ebay driven thing and not really a PayPal thing.

As an ebay seller you must ensure that you:
a) Use sipping with a tracking code
and
b) Put the tracking code into the system

If you don't do this then it's trivial for them to exploit the buyer protection system. Buyer have more rights than sellers on Ebay.

Tracking was used, was entered into the system, receipt for despatch was kept, LPO got an ID supported signature from receiver.
All this has been provided to PayPal. Who also charged me an additional $15 fee for the privilege.
Yet, find in favour of buyer. They have the evidence that the item was received by the buyer ..........

Is there a real separation between eBay and PayPal now, or is it still really only for appearance sake, still?


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#7 2016-08-22 07:32:43

The Crow
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From: "The Place of Many Crows"
Registered: 2014-06-16
Posts: 875
Trades :   76 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

Midastouchofgold wrote:

Thats a joke. Call paypal, and talk to them. They might be more reasonable that way than via email. It would be good if you had of taken the money out of the account before paypal could debit it. Did you put the tracking number into the ebay system as someone else said?

Yep, number went into the system.
I was wondering if a direct call, or even any kind of follow might be worthwhile. It's easy to simply tick the "resolved" box and make complaints disappear, but maybe it is the persistent who get listened to.


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#8 2016-08-22 07:45:05

Ipv6Ready
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From: North Sydney
Registered: 2016-01-08
Posts: 2,214
Trades :   39 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

The Crow wrote:
SilverDJ wrote:

It's a known scam to exploit Ebay's "Buyer Protection" system like this. This is an Ebay driven thing and not really a PayPal thing.

As an ebay seller you must ensure that you:
a) Use sipping with a tracking code
and
b) Put the tracking code into the system

If you don't do this then it's trivial for them to exploit the buyer protection system. Buyer have more rights than sellers on Ebay.

Tracking was used, was entered into the system, receipt for despatch was kept, LPO got an ID supported signature from receiver.
All this has been provided to PayPal. Who also charged me an additional $15 fee for the privilege.
Yet, find in favour of buyer. They have the evidence that the item was received by the buyer ..........

Is there a real separation between eBay and PayPal now, or is it still really only for appearance sake, still?

Yes they would be a clear separation. I work in another field that is semi regulated by ACCC and they are not a to be taken lightly.

I think a phone call to a person however low in rank, if you had the evidence you have they surely will have to escalate.


WTB 4 to 6 grams of pure gold. Don't care if it is coin, bar or granules. Near spot, suits anyone who has been tempted to open a certicard or just have some granules to make a ring

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#9 2016-08-22 08:03:35

Lunardragon
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From: Land of Nineth Dragon
Registered: 2011-10-19
Posts: 3,928
Trades :   248 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

I had a case previously on ebay.
The buyer emailed and tried to threat me to open the case if not refund the monies.
The buyer sent me the item's pic and I could tell from the pic that the item was not the one I sent off.
What I did was I initiated to open the case against the buyer by lodging a complaint and also I made calls to paypal and ebay.
I emailed all the docs (pics before n after packaging, pic on lpo scale, proof signature on delivery) incld my original purchase receipt.
I believe you need to make phonecalls to them apart from the emails.
I found that the case would be handled more proper (in my case, though).
Hope this helps mate
LD


An Opportunity comes only once. Grab it while you can!

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#10 2016-08-22 08:16:29

monopolize
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From: Melbourne
Registered: 2013-03-28
Posts: 1,006
Trades :   135 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

Tell them if they don't review your case you'll take it to the financial services ombudsman. They get hit with a fee each time a case is opened against them.

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#11 2016-08-22 08:27:44

silversearcher
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From: Australia
Registered: 2012-11-06
Posts: 687
Trades :   13 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

The Crow wrote:
SilverDJ wrote:

It's a known scam to exploit Ebay's "Buyer Protection" system like this. This is an Ebay driven thing and not really a PayPal thing.

As an ebay seller you must ensure that you:
a) Use sipping with a tracking code
and
b) Put the tracking code into the system

If you don't do this then it's trivial for them to exploit the buyer protection system. Buyer have more rights than sellers on Ebay.

Tracking was used, was entered into the system, receipt for despatch was kept, LPO got an ID supported signature from receiver.
All this has been provided to PayPal. Who also charged me an additional $15 fee for the privilege.
Yet, find in favour of buyer. They have the evidence that the item was received by the buyer ..........

Is there a real separation between eBay and PayPal now, or is it still really only for appearance sake, still?

You can report the buyer to Ebay.  Never discount small claims small claims tribunal ( depending on state lived in )..You have the name of the buyer and receipts of postage etc.

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#12 2016-08-22 11:38:12

Gatito Bandito
Member
From: US
Registered: 2014-11-07
Posts: 2,378
Trades :   12 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

Contest it.

Be sure to *call*.

And keep escalating up the rank (supervisor, supervisor's supervisor) until you get a favorable resolution.


Good luck!

Let us know how it turns out.

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#13 2016-08-23 07:01:37

The Crow
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From: "The Place of Many Crows"
Registered: 2014-06-16
Posts: 875
Trades :   76 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

The phone call option is only to a call centre minion, but persistence did eventually yield an email address:
[email protected]
for being able to appeal the obviously summary decision that I first received.


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#14 2016-08-30 01:40:22

The Crow
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From: "The Place of Many Crows"
Registered: 2014-06-16
Posts: 875
Trades :   76 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

Well, at this moment, I have my money back from PayPal. However, I don't know if it's mine for certain or if there is a chance there will be another 'go round'.

I followed the general advice above and the particular advice of monopolize and mentioned the financial services ombudsman. I laid it out all plain and clear in my best legalese and they immediately backpedalled. I can't say I know how to deal with these issues, but emailing that address above, stating that the appeal was a preliminary to approaching the financial services ombudsman and laying out the facts (and my interpretation of them) in a very clear manner, got results. I did have all the documents.

I still believe that PayPal's first response is probably the standard response and that it takes pushing to get anywhere at all.
I'm hoping this particular incident is over now.


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#15 2016-09-04 06:48:55

The Crow
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From: "The Place of Many Crows"
Registered: 2014-06-16
Posts: 875
Trades :   76 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

Doing another go-round with PayPal. I am now getting anyone who buys more than $100 through eBay and pay with PayPal to email me that they authorise the transaction and to confirm their postal address. Else I request not using PayPal. Too bad if I lose sales - the money is lost anyway, otherwise. I have had one person refuse to pay by DD rather than PayPal.


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#16 2016-09-04 07:11:27

silversearcher
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From: Australia
Registered: 2012-11-06
Posts: 687
Trades :   13 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

The Crow wrote:

Doing another go-round with PayPal. I am now getting anyone who buys more than $100 through eBay and pay with PayPal to email me that they authorise the transaction and to confirm their postal address. Else I request not using PayPal. Too bad if I lose sales - the money is lost anyway, otherwise. I have had one person refuse to pay by DD rather than PayPal.

This is great advice about the buyer confirming " authorisation" and confirmation of address.

What I do if I'm suspicious of potential scammers,  I message all the sellers the potential scammer has bought from in the past and ask if goods have not arrived or have been charged back. I've had several replies in the past that some have. So they get a immediate refund and I then claime back fees. Then BLOCK THEM. I should start a thread with a list of all the buyers who tried to pull a swifty by claiming "IT NEVER ARRIVED"....I have quite a few Ebay accounts in my BLOCKED LIST.

Last edited by silversearcher (2016-09-04 07:13:24)

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#17 2016-09-04 07:30:03

The Crow
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From: "The Place of Many Crows"
Registered: 2014-06-16
Posts: 875
Trades :   76 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

^^^^
eBay doesn't allow negative buyer feedback, so I would imagine many people who get scammed, simply don't leave feedback.
And I imagine 'publishing' a list of blocked buyers would be illegal??? It would have to be privately distributed

Last edited by The Crow (2016-09-04 07:31:57)


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#18 2016-09-04 07:43:39

silversearcher
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From: Australia
Registered: 2012-11-06
Posts: 687
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Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

The Crow wrote:

^^^^
eBay doesn't allow negative buyer feedback, so I would imagine many people who get scammed, simply don't leave feedback.

True, you can't leave negative feedback as a seller. But you can still look at the scammers feedback responses. Many sellers have their feed back responses set on auto. This is perfect for the Scammer, the good feedback gives them more ammunition.  Usually the seller kick themselves for leaving a auto feedback response only to find the buyer has scammed them. That's why I still message those sellers that left the good feedback regardless. If they have been scammed they always respond.

Even though you have been scammed you can still leave a good feedback message to the buyer- Something like - SCAM BUYER...USED CHARGE BACK SCAM. That's provided you haven't already given positive feedback....I never leave good feedback on sales until the buyer has sent positive feedback first.

Last edited by silversearcher (2016-09-04 07:45:23)

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#19 2016-09-04 08:02:45

The Crow
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From: "The Place of Many Crows"
Registered: 2014-06-16
Posts: 875
Trades :   76 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

silversearcher wrote:

Even though you have been scammed you can still leave a good feedback message to the buyer- Something like - SCAM BUYER...USED CHARGE BACK SCAM. That's provided you haven't already given positive feedback....I never leave good feedback on sales until the buyer has sent positive feedback first.

Been thinking about that. Wasn't sure how it would go down with eBay.
Only rarely have I left feedback immediately and only for people I've had a good chat with.
Good advice, and I have emailed two appropriate looking sellers for this particular scammer - I hadn't thought of doing that. If this is a pattern of chargeback through PayPal, bringing that up, even without specific names, PayPal will know it to be true.


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#20 2016-09-04 16:11:09

The Crow
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From: "The Place of Many Crows"
Registered: 2014-06-16
Posts: 875
Trades :   76 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

silversearcher wrote:

That's why I still message those sellers that left the good feedback regardless. If they have been scammed they always respond.

Thank you very much for this advice - two sellers have got back to me with advice that they have been scammed also and at least one for considerably more than me.
PayPal are supporting this individual in committing a series of crimes and they know about it, yet persist in supporting chargebacks.


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#21 2016-09-04 22:25:52

silversearcher
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From: Australia
Registered: 2012-11-06
Posts: 687
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Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

The Crow wrote:
silversearcher wrote:

That's why I still message those sellers that left the good feedback regardless. If they have been scammed they always respond.

Thank you very much for this advice - two sellers have got back to me with advice that they have been scammed also and at least one for considerably more than me.
PayPal are supporting this individual in committing a series of crimes and they know about it, yet persist in supporting chargebacks.

Now you will have to play it smart as you really have the bastard now. Don't alert this buyer that you know from other sellers he has scammed them also, else he will deactivate both Ebay and Paypal accounts. Go to your bank and put a block on the Paypal charge back in progress and report as fraud / unauthorised transaction only on that transaction ( you should  have a Paypal tranaction number and details ). Go to the police and report this scumbag, and encourage to the other sellers to do the same. Forget Ebay you can report the buyer, but I doubt much will come of it. You should be able to nail this bastard. Keep all evidence of Ebay messages and responses as evidence.  Good Luck

Last edited by silversearcher (2016-09-04 22:27:03)

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#22 2016-10-24 20:53:13

masmas
Member
From: Sydney, Australia
Registered: 2016-08-09
Posts: 284
Trades :   

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

Yes, Bullion Deposit Australia store in QLD has confirmed with me that they no longer supports Paypal payment.
http://stores.ebay.com.au/Bullion-Deposit-Australia

Last edited by masmas (2016-10-24 20:53:31)


Regards,

M.A.S

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#23 2017-03-03 22:58:24

The Crow
Silver Stacker
From: "The Place of Many Crows"
Registered: 2014-06-16
Posts: 875
Trades :   76 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

Just had another scam that sellers on eBay/payment by PayPal might want to be aware of.
The buyer waited 3 months for tracking information to be deleted from the Australia Post website. Now there is no tracking info and PayPal have automatically refunded the buyer.
I thought I was being smarter than the scammers - sent it person to person with acknowledgement of receipt.
Australia Post did not return the receipt card. The item was shown as delivered in MyPost tracking.
I never thought of taking a screenshot of that, but PayPal probably wouldn't have accepted that anyway. Now it no longer shows in MyPost and the buyer has now lodged a chargeback. Obviously they know of the time limit on the Aust Post record.


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#24 2017-03-04 03:13:13

Skyrocket
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From: Melbourne
Registered: 2014-07-20
Posts: 4,867
Trades :   36 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

The Crow wrote:

Just had another scam that sellers on eBay/payment by PayPal might want to be aware of.
The buyer waited 3 months for tracking information to be deleted from the Australia Post website. Now there is no tracking info and PayPal have automatically refunded the buyer.
I thought I was being smarter than the scammers - sent it person to person with acknowledgement of receipt.
Australia Post did not return the receipt card. The item was shown as delivered in MyPost tracking.
I never thought of taking a screenshot of that, but PayPal probably wouldn't have accepted that anyway. Now it no longer shows in MyPost and the buyer has now lodged a chargeback. Obviously they know of the time limit on the Aust Post record.

What are you going to do now?

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#25 2017-03-04 03:40:51

willrocks
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From: Yesterday
Registered: 2012-05-10
Posts: 7,629
Trades :   29 

Re: Is PayPal simply a conduit for thieves?

Small claims court.

They'll give your $400 back faster than your wife can figure out a way to spend it.


"You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality." - Ayn Rand

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