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#51 2016-06-17 04:18:40

SpacePete
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:

Even those who identify themselves as libertarians follow an overtly anti-rationalist philosophy, as even a brief acquaintance with the work of Friedrich Hayek should make clear. The argument against reason in this literature is straightforward: it is impossible for any individual to acquire enough reliable information to make a rational decision, any actions founded on rational thought will therefore be delusional, any attempts at reason should therefore regarded as dangerous, and all action should instead be guided by tradition.
Phil Agre, "The Crisis of Public Reason"

So what you're arguing is that it is impossible for me to come to some decision on whether I should have jam on my toast or vegemite?

You failed to comprehend the quote. It describes the overt anti-rationalist Libertarian philosophy that was born from the conservative view that a rational populace is a threat to be countered.


Catus amat piscem, sed non vult tingere plantas

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#52 2016-06-17 04:26:09

SpacePete
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Newtosilver wrote:

You could also crack the sads and have the whole thread deleted....... boom boom

And that gets to the core of Internet Libertarians who revert so quickly to emotional outbursts rather than engage in rational debate when inconsistencies in their philosophy are highlighted. They prefer to censor their critics and demonise alternative views rather than evolve their philosophy.


Catus amat piscem, sed non vult tingere plantas

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#53 2016-06-17 04:36:10

Newtosilver
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

SilverPete wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:

You could also crack the sads and have the whole thread deleted....... boom boom

And that gets to the core of Internet Libertarians who revert so quickly to emotional outbursts rather than engage in rational debate when inconsistencies in their philosophy are highlighted. They prefer to censor their critics and demonise alternative views rather than evolve their philosophy.

That is the thing their philosophy will not evole - they follow a religous like dogma and there can be no deviation which is why it can not work in real life.


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#54 2016-06-17 04:39:28

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

SilverPete wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:

Even those who identify themselves as libertarians follow an overtly anti-rationalist philosophy, as even a brief acquaintance with the work of Friedrich Hayek should make clear. The argument against reason in this literature is straightforward: it is impossible for any individual to acquire enough reliable information to make a rational decision, any actions founded on rational thought will therefore be delusional, any attempts at reason should therefore regarded as dangerous, and all action should instead be guided by tradition.
Phil Agre, "The Crisis of Public Reason"

So what you're arguing is that it is impossible for me to come to some decision on whether I should have jam on my toast or vegemite?

You failed to comprehend the quote. It describes the overt anti-rationalist Libertarian philosophy that was born from the conservative view that a rational populace is a threat to be countered.

You're right, I did misunderstand the quote and I'm barely familiar with the content, someone with a broader understanding of the Austrian school of economics would be able to refute Agre's claims.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#55 2016-06-17 04:41:19

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Newtosilver wrote:

You could also crack the sads and have the whole thread deleted....... boom boom

Just to clarify I didn't ask for the thread to be deleted, just closed.

Remember to keep this debate honest by avoiding ad hominem attacks, I'm upholding my end.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#56 2016-06-17 04:42:33

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Peter wrote:

The kind of people you are sure puts me of libertarianism.

Please limit your input to comments about precious metals.

Edit to add: and who are you kidding, you're a dyed in the wool socialist. You'll likely never be on the side of libertarianism.

Last edited by mmm....shiney! (2016-06-17 04:46:13)


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#57 2016-06-17 04:49:52

Newtosilver
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Peter wrote:

The kind of people you are sure puts me of libertarianism.

Please limit your input to comments about precious metals.

Edit to add: and who are you kidding, you're a dyed in the wool socialist. You'll likely never be on the side of libertarianism.

With you on that one Peter smile


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#58 2016-06-17 04:59:44

Peter
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Peter wrote:

The kind of people you are sure puts me off libertarianism.

Please limit your input to comments about precious metals.

Edit to add: and who are you kidding, you're a dyed in the wool socialist. You'll likely never be on the side of libertarianism.

I've had anarchist and libertarian friends and still have .I believe they would be ashamed to be associated with your approach.
Abusive, pushy and antisocial.
Libertarian is not wanton selfishness

Last edited by Peter (2016-06-17 05:10:36)


....................................
"It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a sick society." ~ Jiddu Krishnamurti

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#59 2016-06-17 05:12:39

HoldMeTender
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Where'd my Unicorn Cake go?


All that glitters is not gold...
...but all that is gold glitters!

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#60 2016-06-17 05:15:32

Newtosilver
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

HoldMeTender wrote:

Where'd my Unicorn Cake go?


Someone who's name we won't mention cracked the sads and had the thread deleted, cake went with it - very disappointing


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#61 2016-06-17 05:29:16

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Peter wrote:

Libertarian is not wanton selfishness

Who said it was?

It is individuals acting in their own self-interest. Naturally, this is only possible by engaging in mutually beneficial relationships or not at all.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#62 2016-06-17 05:38:27

Newtosilver
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

To say that governments are evil is on a par with saying that humans are evil. To claim that it is a necessary evil is on a par with saying that cars are a necessary evil. What we are really talking about are subjective preferences which may or may not be satisfied, not some theological notion of right and wrong. The inescapable evils of coercive behavior are not unique to government. Our government is where we choose to channel and regulate them, because the alternative (private, unregulated coercion) gives much worse results, as the history of privately owned states (monarchies, dictatorships, despotisms) and private "law" such as slavery, mafias, warlords, etc. show rather clearly. We have constructed a government that is jointly owned by all, because private ownership gives too much incentive for profit through coercion of others.
Mike Huben


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#63 2016-06-17 05:41:59

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Libertarianism is not opposed to government.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#64 2016-06-17 05:43:01

Newtosilver
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

My contacts with Libertarians always leave me with a certain amount of contempt for their philosophies, which all seem to rely on the assumption that, if you can string together enough vague and high-sounding rhetoric, you can ignore both (1) all of human history and (2) what everyone else on earth now wants.
Anonymous


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#65 2016-06-17 06:03:15

JulieW
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

mmm....shiney! wrote:

Libertarianism is not opposed to government.

What functions does government undertake and how is paid for?

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#66 2016-06-17 06:29:54

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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

^ +1. Solid question, pity it took 3 pages.......

Last edited by Stoic Phoenix (2016-06-17 06:31:44)


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#67 2016-06-17 06:37:30

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

JulieW wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:

Libertarianism is not opposed to government.

What functions does government undertake and how is paid for?

Two schools of thought, both based upon the notion of protecting person and property.

Briefly because I'm a bit busy, one position (mine) holds that there is no justifiable function because government is an expression of coercion, and because in a democracy the majority gets to call the shots, often that expression of coercion is not invited.

The other side are the minarchists who argue that both person and property are paramount and must be protected at all cost. Very solid claims in my view, they use this to argue that governments are in the best position to achieve this and wish to limit government's function to upholding and protecting both property and person ie courts, police and national defense paid for via a tax system.

My position, the anarcho-capitalist one is that these functions are better provided by the private sector.

Last edited by mmm....shiney! (2016-06-17 06:46:08)


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#68 2016-06-17 06:46:50

Newtosilver
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

mmm....shiney! wrote:
JulieW wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:

Libertarianism is not opposed to government.

What functions does government undertake and how is paid for?

Two schools of thought, both based upon the notion of protecting person and property.

Briefly because I'm a bit busy, one position (mine) holds that there is no justifiable function because government is an expression of coercion, and because in a democracy the majority gets to call the shots, often that expression of coercion is not invited.

The other side are the minarchists who argue that both person and property are paramount and must be protected at all cost. Very solid claims in my view, they use this to argue that governments are in the best position to achieve this and wish to limit government's function to upholding and protecting both property and person ie courts, police and national defense.

My position, the anarcho-capitalist one is that these functions are better provided by the private sector.

If you have any form of Govt there would need to be taxes, you say tax is theft, if you support having govt you therefore have taxes. Are you supporting theft (tax)? Then you have the problem of which form of libertarinism do you work off, which ever form you have all the other libertarians will say it is wrong and the system should use their version of libertarianism.

Also if you have a mass shooting people will want laws passed to limit gun control, as soon as there is a food contamination incident people will want govt regulation and you are back to a democracy and libertarianism gets pushed onto the back burner.


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#69 2016-06-17 07:23:03

JulieW
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

mmm....shiney! wrote:
JulieW wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:

Libertarianism is not opposed to government.

What functions does government undertake and how is paid for?

Two schools of thought, both based upon the notion of protecting person and property.

Briefly because I'm a bit busy, one position (mine) holds that there is no justifiable function because government is an expression of coercion, and because in a democracy the majority gets to call the shots, often that expression of coercion is not invited.

The other side are the minarchists who argue that both person and property are paramount and must be protected at all cost. Very solid claims in my view, they use this to argue that governments are in the best position to achieve this and wish to limit government's function to upholding and protecting both property and person ie courts, police and national defense paid for via a tax system.

My position, the anarcho-capitalist one is that these functions are better provided by the private sector.

I think that's the problem with your position Shiney and why you get so much grief. The anarcho-capitalist system has zero percent chance of being enacted or working and why it's seen as 'religion' - being a faith which is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Not intending to be condescending, but I'd like to see how libertarian principles could be introduced in a workable framework of government. There's too many mouth-breathing knuckle draggers around these days to allow for any such system in my view.

As Jim Jeffries says, the society has to walk at the speed of the slowest amongst us; I might be a good driver but because Mr F. Knuckle killed his 6 mates and a small family in a head-on I have to put up with 80klm on a 4 lane highway.

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#70 2016-06-17 07:29:33

yennus
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Newtosilver wrote:

...
If you have any form of Govt there would need to be taxes, ...

I think most Libertarians are primarily opposed to individual income taxation.

"Could America exist without an income tax? The idea seems radical, yet in truth America did just fine without a federal income tax for the first 126 years of its history. Prior to 1913, the government operated with revenues raised through tariffs, excise taxes, and property taxes, without ever touching a worker's paycheck."

http://www.ronpaul.com/taxes/

Prior to WWI, Australia didn't have an income tax.

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#71 2016-06-17 07:38:59

HoldMeTender
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

JulieW wrote:

As Jim Jeffries says...

Come on Julie, you're never going to convince anyone of anything by quoting your elitist, high-brow literary references tongue


All that glitters is not gold...
...but all that is gold glitters!

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#72 2016-06-17 07:41:28

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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

yennus wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:

...
If you have any form of Govt there would need to be taxes, ...

I think most Libertarians are primarily opposed to individual income taxation.

"Could America exist without an income tax? The idea seems radical, yet in truth America did just fine without a federal income tax for the first 126 years of its history. Prior to 1913, the government operated with revenues raised through tariffs, excise taxes, and property taxes, without ever touching a worker's paycheck."

http://www.ronpaul.com/taxes/

Prior to WWI, Australia didn't have an income tax.

A different world, armies for example, one Javlin missile is $120,000.00, one engagement in Afghanistan can cost millions. Aircraft, attack helicopters, ammunition, fuel, medical support. Same goes for other branches of Govt, cars, office space, a computer on every desk, photocopiers, OH&S requirements etc. Medicine, previously a doctor would have had a bag with a scalpal, alcohol to sterilise the reusable needle and a few tablets. These days, cat scans, MRIs, x ray machines etc.

The world has changed from 100 years ago, if we went back to what they had 100 years ago we probably would not need taxes or much Govt, we live in a modern world and we expect everything that comes with that.


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#73 2016-06-17 07:46:20

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

JulieW wrote:

I think that's the problem with your position Shiney and why you get so much grief. The anarcho-capitalist system has zero percent chance of being enacted or working and why it's seen as 'religion' - being a faith which is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I like to think that the anarcho-capitalist system will eventuate, but I'm realistic enough to recognise that it is most probably won't occur until in the distant future. At this stage, I view the anarcho-capitalist framework as the ultimate stage in the evolution of our social structure. A system where our needs and desires are entirely met within a framework of voluntary relationships, only to be surpassed at that point in time when we either have the means to produce an endless supply of resources at no cost or we trancend our physical bodies.

JulieW wrote:

intending to be condescending, but I'd like to see how libertarian principles could be introduced in a workable framework of government. There's too many mouth-breathing knuckle draggers around these days to allow for any such system in my view.

The opening post are examples of libertarian like policy in practice. Also, a libertarian society would not be a weak society, it would be a society in which resources would be more efficiently allocated as there would be fewer trivialities clamouring for attention, resources would be more efficiently allocated - part of that allocation process would be minimising/eliminating the harm of the knuckle-draggers.

JulieW wrote:

As Jim Jeffries says, the society has to walk at the speed of the slowest amongst us; I might be a good driver but because Mr F. Knuckle killed his 6 mates and a small family in a head-on I have to put up with 80klm on a 4 lane highway.

I understand the analogy, but it is an analogy based upon physical constraint naturally, as it is an example of the state's struggle with resource allocation. Jim Jeffries' position is the antitheses of libertarianism, rather than reduce the human collective down to the lowest common denominator, libertarianism allows the brightest, the innovative, free from the constraints of others to power ahead and in the process, drag us average lot along for the ride. And there is ample evidence of this in "things seen"smile


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#74 2016-06-17 07:48:49

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Newtosilver wrote:

If you have any form of Govt there would need to be taxes, you say tax is theft, if you support having govt you therefore have taxes. Are you supporting theft (tax)?

I am opposed to taxation, but I'm an anarcho-capitalist.

Libertarians in favour of minimal government are not, they offer alternative methods of revenue collection to what is generally relied upon now, eg land taxes, consumption taxes etc.

Newtosilver wrote:

A different world, armies for example, one Javlin missile is $120,000.00, one engagement in Afghanistan can cost millions.

One of the reasons why you will find most libertarians are opposed to standing armies and their associated inefficient allocation of resources and are instead in favour of free-trade.

Last edited by mmm....shiney! (2016-06-17 07:50:45)


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#75 2016-06-17 08:02:07

Newtosilver
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:

If you have any form of Govt there would need to be taxes, you say tax is theft, if you support having govt you therefore have taxes. Are you supporting theft (tax)?

I am opposed to taxation, but I'm an anarcho-capitalist.

Libertarians in favour of minimal government are not, they offer alternative methods of revenue collection to what is generally relied upon now, eg land taxes, consumption taxes etc.

Newtosilver wrote:

A different world, armies for example, one Javlin missile is $120,000.00, one engagement in Afghanistan can cost millions.

One of the reasons why you will find most libertarians are opposed to standing armies and their associated inefficient allocation of resources and are instead in favour of free-trade.

If you have no standing all the defence agreements would become null and void, to raise an effecient Army takes 15 to 20 years. With no standing Armies and no defence agreements the country is a sitting duck. Any country to the north could do what they want, fisheries, natural resources would be up for grabs. Why would they pay for it if they can have it for free. You also have the problem with countries such as the US, they would not be keen on Australia disbanding the defence force. There is also the issue of contracts that have been signed, some last for 15 years. You can not just say we changed our minds and want to cancel.

That is another area libertarianism falls down, you still have to deal with other countries and there Govt will want to deal with a Govt in Australia. Libertarianism does not consider outside factors like other countries. It is a world economy.

If I was a foriegn country and Aus was a libertarian country the first thing I would do is put import duty on all goods coming out of Aus. Aus is not going to put an import duty on foriegn goods because they are libertarians. The other country has an advantage economically straight way. There are so many holes with Libertarianism.


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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