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#26 2016-06-17 01:33:37

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Newtosilver wrote:

One of the great weaknesses of standard libertarian theory is that it tends to push too hard by elevating presumptions into absolutes.
Richard A. Epstein, "Skepticism and Freedom"

What presumptions is Epstein referring to? Would he be referring to the presumption that in order to be truly human, a person must be free of coercion. That a person is only human when he can lay claim to sovereignty over both his person and property?


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#27 2016-06-17 01:33:47

bordsilver
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Newtosilver wrote:

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&sour … iq456qKBhQ

In case anyone missed it in the other thread, Somalia a libertarian paradise - it was made by libertarians but they all moved to Chile and lost the shirts off their back.

The question of Somalia is a good one. There is a strong argument that they are significantly better off than when under Siad Barre's regime so it is not simply an issue of Strong Government versus No Government. There are other factors that play into what makes a successful prosperous society that is pleasant to live in. In contrast, the decades where the US West was effectively without a Government or Government-made law was highly successful and had effective private law and order. So again, it is not just a matter of there will be order with a State-funded police force and justice system and disorder without one. (There are various other historical examples of Polycentric vs Monocentric Law that David Friedman has documented including the existence of Merchant Law.)

Repeating what I said yesterday, there are various ideas about what is involved in the "more" but I have a strong liking for the ideas of the Classical Liberals. As I have discussed with you previously, principally the character of a population makes a very important difference to its economic success. The rule of law and the role of courts are important but it is the personal ethics and values of the general population that are possibly more important still.

An exchange economy only works where those engaging in production and trade are personally honest in their dealings with others (or honest enough). If agreements and contracts can only be enforced through courts of law and the involvement of civil authorities, then an economy will simply not prosper or not work at all.

To be clear, as per your own signature, I am not pushing this to the extreme and pretending that dishonesty cannot exist. Dishonesty exists everywhere. With so much wealth at stake, one must accept that the commercial world will inevitably attract more than its fair share of those who will be dishonest with others, who will rob and defraud them if they can. No economy can be rid of such people. Theft occurs only where there is something to steal. Corrupt practices are an everyday occurrence in the commercial world. However, an economy will work best where the population at large is disgusted by corrupt practices and refuses to accept dishonesty at any level. Those that act dishonestly need to be culled in some way from the normal activities of economic life to engender trust among strangers.

I suspect that the clan based culture of Somalia whereby people from other clans are deemed to have lesser rights than those of their own clan and consequently are considered 'fair game' with lower risk of consequences is a big factor in what makes their economy more dysfunctional than it should be. Anyway. Just food for thought. smile

Last edited by bordsilver (2016-06-17 01:37:10)


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#28 2016-06-17 01:35:02

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Newtosilver wrote:

Do tell what did you say when you lost it?

You want me to answer your question? But you haven't answered my questions relating to this thread yet?


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#29 2016-06-17 01:42:53

SpacePete
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Newtosilver wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:

There are probably more examples. Trouble is I can find heaps of examples of anti-libertarian policies, but libertarian ones are in short supply, especially ones that have been enacted into legislation.

Edit to add: although I must say the history of mankind, especially modern Western society is one of a gradual move toward greater liberty.

There is a reason for that reverand smile

Do tell what did you say when you lost it?

Just imagine if the Libertarian argument to eliminate traffic lights and completely deregulate intersections was enacted into legislation. Apparently traffic lights are an affront to Libertarian principles and are themselves the direct cause of road fatalities. Apparently, "the traffic light is perhaps the most destructive machine yet to be devised by man."

Reference: https://mises.org/library/praxeology-an … fic-lights


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#30 2016-06-17 01:43:14

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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Libertarian policy prescriptions are based on just a few principles, outwardly appealing in their seeming simplicity ...'simple rules for a complex world.' The first ... is that social problems can be resolved by creating a market. Are schools failing? Create a free market in education. Is there pollution or waste of resources? Create a market in the resource or the right to pollute; ... Is there a shortage of human organs for transplants? Let people sell their body parts. Not enough babies for adoption? Allow people to sell their babies ... These principles of 'economic correctness' are increasingly mouthed in the universities and especially in conservative think tanks, but their obvious long-term implications may strike ordinary Americans as horribly cruel. They need to hear this economic gibberish first-hand... Free-market rhetoric is powerfully persuasive only to a certain kind of elite audience; uncoupled from nationalist appeals...it begins to lose its power to motivate general audiences in a positive way.
James Arnt Aune, "Selling the Free Market"


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#31 2016-06-17 01:49:12

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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

^^^ The Libertarian attempts to justify a market in babies is fraught with risk. Bizarre they can't recognise that.


Catus amat piscem, sed non vult tingere plantas

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#32 2016-06-17 01:54:19

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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

A free market that the reverand said supports fake gold and silver products, fake medicines could also be a big problem. How do you know you will get what you are paying for? To bad if you get fake heart medication.


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#33 2016-06-17 01:55:26

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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

SilverPete wrote:

^^^ The Libertarian attempts to justify a market in babies is fraught with risk. Bizarre they can't recognise that.

The invisible hand of the free market will sort it out. Sigh


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#34 2016-06-17 02:10:14

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

I can't comment on most of that stream of quotes and links as I've not read them, don't want to read them or don't have any expertise in the area, so I'll limit myself to what i do know, customer choice.

Newtosilver wrote:

A free market that the reverand said supports fake gold and silver products, fake medicines could also be a big problem. How do you know you will get what you are paying for? To bad if you get fake heart medication.

1. We are all consumers
2. We are all well versed in buying what we want
3. If we don't have much experience when we first buy something we soon learn through either trial and error or by asking for advice
4. We accomplish this task in any of the following ways:
a. research
b. seek advice from other conumers
c. get help/advice from workers whose job it is to advise customers
d. shop by reputation

Simple isn't it?

Last edited by mmm....shiney! (2016-06-17 02:10:33)


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#35 2016-06-17 02:18:27

Newtosilver
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

mmm....shiney! wrote:

I can't comment on most of that stream of quotes and links as I've not read them, don't want to read them or don't have any expertise in the area, so I'll limit myself to what i do know, customer choice.

Newtosilver wrote:

A free market that the reverand said supports fake gold and silver products, fake medicines could also be a big problem. How do you know you will get what you are paying for? To bad if you get fake heart medication.

1. We are all consumers
2. We are all well versed in buying what we want
3. If we don't have much experience when we first buy something we soon learn through either trial and error or by asking for advice
4. We accomplish this task in any of the following ways:
a. research
b. seek advice from other conumers
c. get help/advice from workers whose job it is to advise customers
d. shop by reputation

Simple isn't it?

3 is interesting - we learn through trial and error, there is no trial and error with fake medication you could die. Trial and error may not be a good idea

4b ask others - has your heart medication been working? How do you know apart from you die or end up in hospital.
4d shop by reputation - the people selling it may think it is genuine.

Fake silver and gold in high enough numbers would really damage the market and people could loose a lot of money.

Edit - Libertarianism fails big time

Last edited by Newtosilver (2016-06-17 02:19:25)


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#36 2016-06-17 02:21:20

Newtosilver
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

On the conservative side, today's libertarianism is far more dogmatic and devoid of qualification than the liberalism of Adam Smith or J.S. Mill. Like Marxism, libertarianism is a utopian worldview based on an economic-determinist vision of history. Unlike Marxism, libertarianism is highly specific in its predictions about the transition to the utopian world order, rendering it vulnerable to fact.
Michael Lind, The American Prospect, Dec. 1, 1994


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#37 2016-06-17 02:27:10

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Newtosilver wrote:

3 is interesting - we learn through trial and error, there is no trial and error with fake medication you could die. Trial and error may not be a good idea

You only quoted half of what I wrote, here it is in its entirety:

mmm....shiney! wrote:

3. If we don't have much experience when we first buy something we soon learn through either trial and error or by asking for advice

Now if you are shopping for heart medication, you'd be adventurous to make a choice based on trial and error. cool

Newtosilver wrote:

4b ask others - has your heart medication been working? How do you know apart from you die or end up in hospital.

Like a doctor? Who'd have thought?

Newtosilver wrote:

4d shop by reputation - the people selling it may think it is genuine.

Reputation is earned, clearly if a company has a good reputation they firstly know what they are selling, and possess a desire to protect that reputation.

Last edited by mmm....shiney! (2016-06-17 02:30:42)


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#38 2016-06-17 02:36:18

Newtosilver
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:

3 is interesting - we learn through trial and error, there is no trial and error with fake medication you could die. Trial and error may not be a good idea

You only quoted half of what I wrote, here it is in its entirety:

mmm....shiney! wrote:

3. If we don't have much experience when we first buy something we soon learn through either trial and error or by asking for advice

Now if you are shopping for heart medication, you'd be adventurous to make a choice based on trial and error. cool

Newtosilver wrote:

4b ask others - has your heart medication been working? How do you know apart from you die or end up in hospital.

Like a doctor? Who'd have thought?

Newtosilver wrote:

4d shop by reputation - the people selling it may think it is genuine.

Reputation is earned, clearly if a company has a good reputation they firstly know what they are selling, and possess a desire to protect that reputation.

Ask others? So you ask your doctor which pharmacies are selling fake medicines? If he knew they would'nt be selling them because he would make sure they were removed for sale.

Companies in most cases do not know they are selling fake medicne, it is introduced into the supply chain at various points. The box does not come with a stamp on it saying "fake"

Your libertarian theory does not work in the real world, read up on the fake medicine industry, it would thrive is a libertarian system.

As would fake gold and silver


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#39 2016-06-17 02:40:38

Newtosilver
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Even those who identify themselves as libertarians follow an overtly anti-rationalist philosophy, as even a brief acquaintance with the work of Friedrich Hayek should make clear. The argument against reason in this literature is straightforward: it is impossible for any individual to acquire enough reliable information to make a rational decision, any actions founded on rational thought will therefore be delusional, any attempts at reason should therefore regarded as dangerous, and all action should instead be guided by tradition.
Phil Agre, "The Crisis of Public Reason"


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#40 2016-06-17 02:44:22

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Re: http://forums.silverstackers.com/messag … ml#p925630  =  Reductio ad absurdum

Last edited by mmm....shiney! (2016-06-17 02:45:08)


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#41 2016-06-17 02:46:52

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Newtosilver wrote:

Even those who identify themselves as libertarians follow an overtly anti-rationalist philosophy, as even a brief acquaintance with the work of Friedrich Hayek should make clear. The argument against reason in this literature is straightforward: it is impossible for any individual to acquire enough reliable information to make a rational decision, any actions founded on rational thought will therefore be delusional, any attempts at reason should therefore regarded as dangerous, and all action should instead be guided by tradition.
Phil Agre, "The Crisis of Public Reason"

So what you're arguing is that it is impossible for me to come to some decision on whether I should have jam on my toast or vegemite?

Last edited by mmm....shiney! (2016-06-17 02:49:27)


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#42 2016-06-17 02:53:13

Newtosilver
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:

Even those who identify themselves as libertarians follow an overtly anti-rationalist philosophy, as even a brief acquaintance with the work of Friedrich Hayek should make clear. The argument against reason in this literature is straightforward: it is impossible for any individual to acquire enough reliable information to make a rational decision, any actions founded on rational thought will therefore be delusional, any attempts at reason should therefore regarded as dangerous, and all action should instead be guided by tradition.
Phil Agre, "The Crisis of Public Reason"

So what you're arguing is that it is impossible for me to come to some decision on whether I should have jam on my toast or vegemite?

You can have jam and vegemite or you can have cereal even if you like


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#43 2016-06-17 02:57:12

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Newtosilver wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:

Even those who identify themselves as libertarians follow an overtly anti-rationalist philosophy, as even a brief acquaintance with the work of Friedrich Hayek should make clear. The argument against reason in this literature is straightforward: it is impossible for any individual to acquire enough reliable information to make a rational decision, any actions founded on rational thought will therefore be delusional, any attempts at reason should therefore regarded as dangerous, and all action should instead be guided by tradition.
Phil Agre, "The Crisis of Public Reason"

So what you're arguing is that it is impossible for me to come to some decision on whether I should have jam on my toast or vegemite?

You can have jam and vegemite or you can have cereal even if you like

But if it is impossible for any individual to acquire enough reliable information to make a rational decision, as your quote suggested, then how do I know if my decisions are not delusional? How do I make any decisions?


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#44 2016-06-17 03:07:12

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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

... liberty may be endangered by the abuses of liberty as well as by the abuses of power...
James Madison, The Federalist, no. 63


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#45 2016-06-17 04:02:46

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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:

all action should instead be guided by tradition.

So what you're arguing is that it is impossible for me to come to some decision on whether I should have jam on my toast or vegemite?

I'm confused? What if I traditionally have vegemite, but I'm in a place that doesn't sell vegemite, what do I do??  roll

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#46 2016-06-17 04:02:46

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

Newtosilver wrote:

... liberty may be endangered by the abuses of liberty as well as by the abuses of power...
James Madison, The Federalist, no. 63

So argued the great man in support of a second house to represent the states (The Senate), elected by the people to defend them against any possible abuses of liberty or power by a centralised government.

A personal hero of mine who would be disgusted with the model of government now operating in the US.  hmm


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#47 2016-06-17 04:03:04

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

GoldenEye wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:

all action should instead be guided by tradition.

So what you're arguing is that it is impossible for me to come to some decision on whether I should have jam on my toast or vegemite?

I'm confused? What if I traditionally have vegemite, but I'm in a place that doesn't sell vegemite, what do I do??  roll

panic?

Ring your local member?

Last edited by mmm....shiney! (2016-06-17 04:04:12)


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#48 2016-06-17 04:11:56

Newtosilver
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

GoldenEye wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:

all action should instead be guided by tradition.

So what you're arguing is that it is impossible for me to come to some decision on whether I should have jam on my toast or vegemite?

I'm confused? What if I traditionally have vegemite, but I'm in a place that doesn't sell vegemite, what do I do??  roll

Your a big boy have toast and butter and a cold beverage, a warm beverage if you prefer.


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#49 2016-06-17 04:12:58

Peter
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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

The kind of people you are sure puts me off libertarianism.

Last edited by Peter (2016-06-17 05:04:14)


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#50 2016-06-17 04:13:40

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Re: Libertarian policy around the world

You could also crack the sads and have the whole thread deleted....... boom boom


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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