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  • » a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

#1 2014-12-04 03:18:43

phrenzy
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a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

Saw these at a local today and liked the condition for the age. I'm quickly amassing sovs even though I'm not really looking for gold...

These are in much nicer condition than my last 1899p sovs, the plastic has a few dings but the 75 and 77 are particularly nice.


My question though is on the 1877 s. I got a 2013 edition of Rennik's guide but for some reason the 1877s isn't in there, every other year and mark is in there but not the 77...for some reason it's missing. Anyone have the 2014? Is it in there?

Now the good stuff:

2014_12_04_17_07_53.jpg
Source:ME! 

2014_12_04_17_08_16.jpg
Source: ME!

2014_12_04_17_07_21.jpg
Source:ME! 

Last edited by phrenzy (2014-12-04 03:19:51)


R.I.P Khaled Al Assad. One man who few will remember, he died defending humanities legacy.
"Hundreds would die, but not the thing they died for. 'A man can stand up..."

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#2 2014-12-04 03:50:55

phrenzy
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

OK so according to a sovereign website and a coin dealer I rang the reason it's not in Renniks is because they simply didn't make an 1877 st george in Sydney. The only problem with that being I'm holding one in my hand right now...comments?


R.I.P Khaled Al Assad. One man who few will remember, he died defending humanities legacy.
"Hundreds would die, but not the thing they died for. 'A man can stand up..."

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#3 2014-12-04 04:06:39

silver addict
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

this is taken from 2013 mcdonalds

Last edited by silver addict (2014-12-04 18:54:26)

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#4 2014-12-04 04:12:11

phrenzy
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

That's for the shield though. Definitely an 1877 S st george.

Last edited by phrenzy (2014-12-04 04:12:43)


R.I.P Khaled Al Assad. One man who few will remember, he died defending humanities legacy.
"Hundreds would die, but not the thing they died for. 'A man can stand up..."

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#5 2014-12-04 04:13:03

phrenzy
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

...am I a millionaire?


R.I.P Khaled Al Assad. One man who few will remember, he died defending humanities legacy.
"Hundreds would die, but not the thing they died for. 'A man can stand up..."

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#6 2014-12-04 04:23:00

silver addict
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

ok

Last edited by silver addict (2014-12-04 18:55:02)

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#7 2014-12-04 04:23:04

spannermonkey
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

Have you weighed it , could be a jewellers copy


EXIT STAGE LEFT

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#8 2014-12-04 04:30:14

silver addict
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

o

Last edited by silver addict (2014-12-04 04:39:26)

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#9 2014-12-04 04:31:46

phrenzy
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

Within two one hundredths of a gram of my 75s in the same cardboard cover:
20141204_185736.jpg
Source:

20141204_185728.jpg
Source:


R.I.P Khaled Al Assad. One man who few will remember, he died defending humanities legacy.
"Hundreds would die, but not the thing they died for. 'A man can stand up..."

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#10 2014-12-04 04:35:50

phrenzy
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

Accordingto Rennik's the mint mark is below the portrait of the queen on the young head and moved on the latter ones.

Plus it has that slight darkening sheen old sovs get. I know it can't be but it seems legit...now I don't know what to think.

Anyone want to give me a quarter million for it now before I take it to a dealer? smile


R.I.P Khaled Al Assad. One man who few will remember, he died defending humanities legacy.
"Hundreds would die, but not the thing they died for. 'A man can stand up..."

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#11 2014-12-04 04:38:31

phrenzy
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

Just weighed an empty 22mm cardboard protector and it's a little over 2g. That accounts for the extra weight.


R.I.P Khaled Al Assad. One man who few will remember, he died defending humanities legacy.
"Hundreds would die, but not the thing they died for. 'A man can stand up..."

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#12 2014-12-04 05:27:36

phrenzy
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

Obviously the odds of this being a 1920s style "few in existence" coin are pretty low but how common are jewelers sovs that are the exact right size and weight?  Is there anything specific I should be looking for? 
I know I'm new to sovereigns but it looks pretty kosher to me and Sydney did make young head st george sovs in previous years so it's not like it's impossible they made one or two that year...


R.I.P Khaled Al Assad. One man who few will remember, he died defending humanities legacy.
"Hundreds would die, but not the thing they died for. 'A man can stand up..."

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#13 2014-12-04 06:15:27

bja
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

Read this, might answer some questions

http://www.drakesterling.com/coins-for- … sovereigns

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#14 2014-12-04 06:21:06

bja
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

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#15 2014-12-04 06:30:08

phrenzy
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

It doesn't have any of the obvious signs but I agree this is the likely explenation. Why would someone make such a high quality counterfeit from a year that doesn't exist and would be immediately suspect though?
Next step is getting it xrf'd and take it to a numismatic dealer I guess.


R.I.P Khaled Al Assad. One man who few will remember, he died defending humanities legacy.
"Hundreds would die, but not the thing they died for. 'A man can stand up..."

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#16 2014-12-04 06:47:47

bja
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

Wrong year, types, die pairings etc are common in fakes.  Does not mean its not worth checking it out but I would say this is a fake.  Looking forward to the verdict, you may just have the exception to the rule.

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#17 2014-12-04 06:49:16

bja
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

It could also be the case that when they made it they didnt know that there was not any sovereigns from that mint in that year.

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#18 2014-12-04 06:54:04

phrenzy
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

I think xrf will be key. I won't get excited until it comes back with the right copper to gold ratio.

I wonder why they never made an 1877 s st george when they made one previous years?  I can't find a good history on it.

Even if it is real I suppose you might never find out, I wonder how they came to recognize the 1920s that only has a few known examples.


R.I.P Khaled Al Assad. One man who few will remember, he died defending humanities legacy.
"Hundreds would die, but not the thing they died for. 'A man can stand up..."

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#19 2014-12-04 07:13:49

bja
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

from memory they melted most of what they minted, hence why they are rare.  They always knew they had minted them.

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#20 2014-12-05 03:03:49

phrenzy
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

Went to a couple places today. Got it XRFd and it vane back 22k alloyed with copper like you'd want. Weighed in expensive scales out of the packet and it was 1/100th of a gram under so within tolerance for a slightly worn coin.
Opinion was divided but intriguingly in one of the big volumes of Australian coins I wasn't familiar with (looked like the white pages) listed 2 known examples of Sydney 1877 S st george sovereigns so they  were made and do exist though never for circulation, the assumption being that the mint only made a small handful of prototypes and a couple escaped. Good news though the balance of probability is still that this is a fake.

Maybe this went home in someone's pocket from the mint on the day they struck them.


R.I.P Khaled Al Assad. One man who few will remember, he died defending humanities legacy.
"Hundreds would die, but not the thing they died for. 'A man can stand up..."

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#21 2014-12-05 03:25:09

brisbanecoin
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

phrenzy wrote:

Went to a couple places today. Got it XRFd and it vane back 22k alloyed with copper like you'd want. Weighed in expensive scales out of the packet and it was 1/100th of a gram under so within tolerance for a slightly worn coin.
Opinion was divided but intriguingly in one of the big volumes of Australian coins I wasn't familiar with (looked like the white pages) listed 2 known examples of Sydney 1877 S st george sovereigns so they  were made and do exist though never for circulation, the assumption being that the mint only made a small handful of prototypes and a couple escaped. Good news though the balance of probability is still that this is a fake.

Maybe this went home in someone's pocket from the mint on the day they struck them.


Just remember if it is real and the only way people got them were if it was stolen from the mint then arguably if could be government property (Think  1964 peace dollar)  on the other hand if even 1 or 2 were sold or given away to friends or private collectors, if it is real then could be a fantastic score!

Best of luck to you getting it authenticated, hope its real and worth heaps for ya big_smile

(One member recently scored a proof florin valued over 50k so Extremely rare coins sold by those who do not know or realize can happen and if its real you may just have him beat!)

Not to sure who the Australian Expert on sovereigns is but my guess is it might be worth a trip to one of the major auction houses!

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#22 2014-12-05 04:31:27

phrenzy
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

brisbanecoin wrote:
phrenzy wrote:

Went to a couple places today. Got it XRFd and it vane back 22k alloyed with copper like you'd want. Weighed in expensive scales out of the packet and it was 1/100th of a gram under so within tolerance for a slightly worn coin.
Opinion was divided but intriguingly in one of the big volumes of Australian coins I wasn't familiar with (looked like the white pages) listed 2 known examples of Sydney 1877 S st george sovereigns so they  were made and do exist though never for circulation, the assumption being that the mint only made a small handful of prototypes and a couple escaped. Good news though the balance of probability is still that this is a fake.

Maybe this went home in someone's pocket from the mint on the day they struck them.


Just remember if it is real and the only way people got them were if it was stolen from the mint then arguably if could be government property (Think  1964 peace dollar)  on the other hand if even 1 or 2 were sold or given away to friends or private collectors, if it is real then could be a fantastic score!

Best of luck to you getting it authenticated, hope its real and worth heaps for ya big_smile

(One member recently scored a proof florin valued over 50k so Extremely rare coins sold by those who do not know or realize can happen and if its real you may just have him beat!)

Not to sure who the Australian Expert on sovereigns is but my guess is it might be worth a trip to one of the major auction houses!

One of the places I went to thought he might know who the contributor who added the two 77s sovs to the big index book was and took a scan of it and is sending it to him. It's a real ray of hope that a couple actually exist so the mint that year had everything they needed to make them and it is at least possible and I wouldn't have to do a big historical search to prove that they exist at all.

I've also been referred to noble coins in Sydney. Ideally I'd like to find a picture of one if the couple that are known to exist to compare. I wonder if Sydney mint would have a historian or researcher there who could help.


R.I.P Khaled Al Assad. One man who few will remember, he died defending humanities legacy.
"Hundreds would die, but not the thing they died for. 'A man can stand up..."

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#23 2014-12-05 05:37:59

1for1
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

Jewellers copies were made to showcase the expertise of the jeweller, hence they are the same purity and of just a fine quality (at their best). To further prove the quality and to set themselves apart, choosing a non-minted date and or mint would be the evidence its not simply a real one.

You cant 100% discount the possibility the dies were switched (this should be a shield obverse instead its st george / or vice versa) but i think it unlikely.
smile

1for1

Last edited by 1for1 (2014-12-05 06:10:48)


FAV STOCK FGR - | Digi Comm Mktg | Metals  #1for1

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#24 2014-12-05 06:19:25

phrenzy
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

1for1 wrote:

Jewellers copies were made to showcase the expertise of the jeweller, hence they are the same purity and of just a fine quality (at their best). To further prove the quality and to set themselves apart, choosing a non-minted date and or mint would be the evidence its not simply a real one.

You cant 100% discount the possibility the dies were switched (this should be a shield obverse instead its st george / or vice versa) but i think it unlikely.
smile

1for1

Dies wouldn't necessarily have to be swapped out as it seems a small run of them was actually made. There are 2 known surviving examples according to the book a coin dealer I saw today had (forgot to ask which one but it looked like a phone book).

Still likely to be a jewelers copy or straight forgery as you say but it is hopeful information as they did make some though most were destroyed there are a couple of survivors in a similar fashion to the 1920s.


R.I.P Khaled Al Assad. One man who few will remember, he died defending humanities legacy.
"Hundreds would die, but not the thing they died for. 'A man can stand up..."

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#25 2014-12-05 07:20:52

serial
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Re: a few nice old Sydney sovs and a question about the 1877s

that would be Krause which has the following
1876M 2,124,000 — BV 245 750 1,250
1877S Rare 2 — — — — —
1877M 1,487,000 — BV 240 700 1,200

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