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#1 2014-10-02 21:26:35

openeyes
Silver Stacker
From: Canberra
Registered: 2014-08-25
Posts: 224
Trades :   18 

ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

Hi All,

Being a noob to these different options I am trying to establish the most cost effective but 100% owned silver with storage.

It is for a SMSF and I want to have it stored at a secure location as it will be too large for home.

I see that some of the bullion sellers have this option of allocated pooled PM's. I know unalloacted is an issue legally if the business was to go bust and had debts. But what about this allocated pooled option. ABC Bullion are offering this without storage costs but including insurance and it seems quite attractive assuming there was a clear legal ownership.

Any thoughts? I did not seem to find any distinct legal position on this type of holding and would really appreciate it if someone has some knowledge in this area.

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#2 2014-10-02 21:52:52

Bullion Baron
Silver Stacker
From: Adelaide
Registered: 2009-09-14
Posts: 7,298
Trades :   139 
Website

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

I would be asking to see their product disclosure statement for the product, it's not something that I've seen available online, they may not have one.

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#3 2014-10-02 22:07:09

malachii
Member
From: Victoria
Registered: 2010-06-08
Posts: 1,864
Trades :   280 
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Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

Legal ownership or not - all it takes is some over zealous liquidator to try and use all the money from the business going into receivership on legal disputes hoping to win a couple and your silver is locked away until you go through a lengthy (ie costly) legal dispute.

Been there, done that and got the t-shirt to prove it sad

IN MY OPINION ONLY - take possesion of it and find your own way to store it. That way you have full control when it all goes pear shaped.

malachii


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#4 2014-10-02 22:38:15

openeyes
Silver Stacker
From: Canberra
Registered: 2014-08-25
Posts: 224
Trades :   18 

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

malachii wrote:

Legal ownership or not - all it takes is some over zealous liquidator to try and use all the money from the business going into receivership on legal disputes hoping to win a couple and your silver is locked away until you go through a lengthy (ie costly) legal dispute.

Been there, done that and got the t-shirt to prove it sad

IN MY OPINION ONLY - take possesion of it and find your own way to store it. That way you have full control when it all goes pear shaped.

malachii

Ouch - I certainly want to avoid that.

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#5 2014-10-02 22:42:06

openeyes
Silver Stacker
From: Canberra
Registered: 2014-08-25
Posts: 224
Trades :   18 

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

For safety I need one of those Kodak bars at 10 thousand ounces - a lot safer to leave lying around.


Better still have it cast into a safe and put a single 1kg bar inside the safe to be stolen! No one ever steals the safe.

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#6 2014-10-08 21:53:36

Miksture
Silver Stacker
From: Brisbane, Australia
Registered: 2014-10-03
Posts: 422
Trades :   62 

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

Put it in a hole in your back yard and drop your (encapsulated) stack into it. Fill the hole with cement and the pole of your hills hoist. Hang you clothes over a fortune in Silver and gold smile


We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence then, is not an act, but a habit. --- Aristotle.

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#7 2014-10-09 00:33:31

openeyes
Silver Stacker
From: Canberra
Registered: 2014-08-25
Posts: 224
Trades :   18 

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

Miksture wrote:

Put it in a hole in your back yard and drop your (encapsulated) stack into it. Fill the hole with cement and the pole of your hills hoist. Hang you clothes over a fortune in Silver and gold smile


LOL I like it.

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#8 2014-10-09 00:55:50

Jislizard
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2011-04-07
Posts: 7,472
Trades :   57 

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

malachii wrote:

Legal ownership or not - all it takes is some over zealous liquidator to try and use all the money from the business going into receivership on legal disputes hoping to win a couple and your silver is locked away until you go through a lengthy (ie costly) legal dispute.

Been there, done that and got the t-shirt to prove it sad

IN MY OPINION ONLY - take possesion of it and find your own way to store it. That way you have full control when it all goes pear shaped.

malachii

Sorry to hear about that, was it your own personal stack or your SMSF

I could understand them doing that for your personal stack but I would have thought they would have more difficulty trying it on with Superannuation.  The liquidator is going to need some special clout in order for the Government to let them take something that the Government was hoping to take from you.  I can't see them just letting the liquidator walk off with it, I wonder if my SMSF has any insurance for such a thing...


Now stacking: World Junk Silver Coins.
Swap your older, worn, dirty fractional silver coins for fiat, .999 rounds or legal tender. 
Individual coins, mixed lots or bulk. 
Not looking for Australian, bent, holed or damaged coins, thanks!

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#9 2015-03-16 19:06:19

[email protected]
New Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2013-03-13
Posts: 8
Trades :   

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

Hello All

Just realised i have never contributed to this topic on this forum

Regarding our pool allocated products - and indeed all of our physical metals - they don't come with a PDS - PDS only issued on financial products like a managed fund or an ETF. i.e for a financial product. If ABC were to launch a gold managed fund or some such thing, then it would of course come with a PDS

Back to the physical - you'll also notice we have our metals audited every quarter by an external party

https://www.abcbullion.com.au/storage-s … ent-audits

But i think the bottom line for clients is going with whatever makes you feel most comfortable. Pool allocated has free storage and tightest spreads, but for those that prefer to take delivery of bars, that is no problem at all. We have a full range of solutions to clients when it comes to storage - including private vaulting via Custodian Vaults (with free metal transfers)

https://www.abcbullion.com.au/storage-services/storage

In interests of disclosure - that is what i personally do with my metals

If you guys have any questions about any of this - feel free to shoot me a note at [email protected]

Cheers

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#10 2016-06-05 19:21:50

silverissue
New Member
Registered: 2016-06-04
Posts: 9
Trades :   

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

Hi I've just had a look at the latest Jan 2016 audit, and it's very vaguely written.  They haven't seen the PMs or know the actual quantities due to 'confidentiality' reasons.  Also is there any chance it could be written in plain english?  The auditors fill 95% of the report with disclaimers about how wrong they could be!!!

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#11 2016-06-05 19:55:06

SilverDJ
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
Posts: 2,528

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

malachii wrote:

IN MY OPINION ONLY - take possesion of it and find your own way to store it. That way you have full control when it all goes pear shaped.

Or simply chose allocated. If a liquidator takes it in that case then it's outright theft and they will go to jail for it.
If you are still concerned, go with the Perth Mint depository program, it is state government backed and not privately owned. But queue to doomsayers saying the government can go bankrupt and SHTF etc roll

Last edited by SilverDJ (2016-06-05 19:56:12)

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#12 2016-06-05 20:26:25

Holdfast
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2009-10-15
Posts: 8,192
Trades :   

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

SilverDJ wrote:
malachii wrote:

IN MY OPINION ONLY - take possesion of it and find your own way to store it. That way you have full control when it all goes pear shaped.

Or simply chose allocated. If a liquidator takes it in that case then it's outright theft and they will go to jail for it.
If you are still concerned, go with the Perth Mint depository program, it is state government backed and not privately owned. But queue to doomsayers saying the government can go bankrupt and SHTF etc roll

Government backed ???

Guarantee by Treasurer

        (1)         The payment of —

            (a)         the cash equivalent of gold due, payable and deliverable by Gold Corporation, the Mint or GoldCorp under this Act; and............................


http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/wa/c … 8/s22.html

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#13 2016-06-05 20:44:59

sammysilver
Silver Stacker
From: Sydney
Registered: 2011-04-07
Posts: 5,482
Trades :   189 
Website

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

If you cross the road at a pedestrian crossing and some mug runs you over and kills you; you can go to the grave knowing you were right and they were wrong.


The price we pay for the good life is public servitude.

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#14 2016-06-05 23:03:06

SilverDJ
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
Posts: 2,528

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

Holdfast wrote:
SilverDJ wrote:
malachii wrote:

IN MY OPINION ONLY - take possesion of it and find your own way to store it. That way you have full control when it all goes pear shaped.

Or simply chose allocated. If a liquidator takes it in that case then it's outright theft and they will go to jail for it.
If you are still concerned, go with the Perth Mint depository program, it is state government backed and not privately owned. But queue to doomsayers saying the government can go bankrupt and SHTF etc roll

Government backed ???
Guarantee by Treasurer
        (1)         The payment of —
            (a)         the cash equivalent of gold due, payable and deliverable by Gold Corporation, the Mint or GoldCorp under this Act; and............................
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/wa/c … 8/s22.html

What's your point?
You don't lose your money, that's the whole point.
Who cares that you don't get the physical gold, you get the money for it, so take the cash and go buy gold the next day if that's what you want.
If you want physical gold, get allocated. Why would you expect to be paid in physical gold for your unallocated account?

Last edited by SilverDJ (2016-06-05 23:04:57)

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#15 2016-06-05 23:34:35

SpacePete
Silver Stacker
Registered: 2014-03-01
Posts: 13,437
Trades :   122 
Website

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

SilverDJ wrote:

You don't lose your money, that's the whole point.
Who cares that you don't get the physical gold, you get the money for it, so take the cash and go buy gold the next day if that's what you want.
If you want physical gold, get allocated. Why would you expect to be paid in physical gold for your unallocated account?

If things are so bad that they paying out in cash then you may not be able to buy gold with your fiat, especially if it is rapidly depreciating due to hyperinflation or gold rapidly rising, in which case tomorrow you won't be able to buy as much gold as you could today. That's just speculation of course.

Last edited by SpacePete (2016-06-05 23:35:41)


Catus amat piscem, sed non vult tingere plantas

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#16 2016-06-06 00:22:05

tozak
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2011-05-05
Posts: 2,036
Trades :   177 

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

Reading the storage options only the 'Premium Storage' seems like you have clear title to it

https://www.abcbullion.com.au/storage-& … ry/storage

The 'Secure Storage' states "If you withdraw them, you may not get the very same product/s you placed into storage, but you will receive exactly the same size, brand, type and most importantly, value." So does that mean it's allocated or not?


The whole world only one block apart

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#17 2016-06-06 00:47:40

SilverDJ
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
Posts: 2,528

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

SilverPete wrote:
SilverDJ wrote:

You don't lose your money, that's the whole point.
Who cares that you don't get the physical gold, you get the money for it, so take the cash and go buy gold the next day if that's what you want.
If you want physical gold, get allocated. Why would you expect to be paid in physical gold for your unallocated account?

If things are so bad that they paying out in cash then you may not be able to buy gold with your fiat, especially if it is rapidly depreciating due to hyperinflation or gold rapidly rising, in which case tomorrow you won't be able to buy as much gold as you could today. That's just speculation of course.

It's likely because the gold has to be produced, and there is extra cost and effort in that for them, just like when you buy allocated they actually go and produce your bar.
They don't want to have to do that, it's much easier to simply pay you out in cash, hence the rule.
But yeah, if you want to buy into the whole hyperinflation fear, won't be able to buy gold the next day thing scare tactic, go right ahead.

Once again, if you think there is genuine risk there (which there demonstrably isn't based on history) simply buy allocated to begin with.
The point is that the Perth Mint's unallocated program is government backed, the private companies are just that, private, and can do whatever they want and are only accountable if you can catch them and prosecute them and they haven't spend the money.

If you want to talk real world risk, I think there is more risk in having your gold in a private vault than there is unallocated in the Perth Mint and having it government backed.

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#18 2016-06-06 00:49:00

SilverDJ
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
Posts: 2,528

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

tozak wrote:

Reading the storage options only the 'Premium Storage' seems like you have clear title to it
https://www.abcbullion.com.au/storage-& … ry/storage
The 'Secure Storage' states "If you withdraw them, you may not get the very same product/s you placed into storage, but you will receive exactly the same size, brand, type and most importantly, value." So does that mean it's allocated or not?

That likely means it's legally allocated, i.e. it's off the books, but you don't have specific ownership of a serial numbered bar, just a generic bar they have in a big stockpile.

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#19 2016-06-06 00:59:19

Big A.D.
Silver Stacker
From: Sydney
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 6,437
Trades :   52 

Re: ABC Bullion - Pool allocated PM's - What is the legal position

tozak wrote:

The 'Secure Storage' states "If you withdraw them, you may not get the very same product/s you placed into storage, but you will receive exactly the same size, brand, type and most importantly, value." So does that mean it's allocated or not?

At the very least it means they can't be arsed physically moving tonnes of metal around because the bar with "your" serial number is on the bottom of the pile.


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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