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#51 2015-01-16 05:30:54

Newtosilver
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Registered: 2012-07-05
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Re: Free market regulation

SilverPete wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:
SilverPete wrote:

If the market for everything was truly unregulated, maybe there would be an opportunity for a privately funded enforcement company with private military contractors to forcefully discourage certain business activities, e.g. if you dump asbestos outside a daycare centre for young kids (as happens in Sydney already) then you can expect your business to be terminated with extreme prejudice and maybe even end up with a pair of cement shoes, Mafia style.


Unless you own the privately funded enforcement company then you can dump stuff wherever you want smile

Or a private defence force to repel the enforcers.

Ultimately it may come down to who can make the most money to fund the most powerful private military. We can probably look to the black market for profitable ideas. For example, gangs who deal in drugs and weapons and who ruthlessly control their empires.

Exactly, you are on the money..... Two or more  private military factions trying to gain control. How does that create stability? What happened in Somalia?


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#52 2015-01-16 09:44:10

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Free market regulation

smk762 wrote:

The spud situation is stupid, and an example of reg fail. I'm 90% on board with free market econs, but the 10% of pricks with a profit above all ethics mindset make me wary of anything beyond minarchy.

So you are willing to accept government regulation of markets in order to protect everyone from the "10% fail"?

What proportion of government regulations fail? 10%? 14%? 33%? 89%?

I know you can't answer that. Especially if the government has a monopoly because there is no benchmark.

If governments worked then clearly we should be living in a bed of roses and there should not be any budget emergencies, aging population dilemnas, public health crises, crime sprees or any cause to be alert (remembering not to be alarmed lol ).

The free market advocates acknowledge that under a free market the world would not be perfect, there would be profit, loss, success and mistakes on many sides. Individuals live and learn and are responsible for their own decisions. They have no one else to blame or look to except themselves, but if there was a case to mount they could address their concerns in a court. The pro-government regulators however deny that under a government regulated system anyone would lose. Clearly, the pro-government apologists are either disillusioned or scoundrels. Or liars. hmm

I'm pegging it's the third one.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#53 2015-01-16 11:02:28

smk762
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Re: Free market regulation

I'm not saying current level of gov regs are a better option. Just prefer something better than a war of private armies to resolve disputes. And how are concerns in court addressed in the absence of laws? The potato board uses regulations to act as a monopoly. I don't expect a free market to not allow similar monopolistic outcomes if violent solutions are an acceptable method of conducting business.


Note: No view / opinion I express is to be construed in any way as representative of entities which I may be associated with, including but not limited to employers, clubs, or charitable organisations. All commentary is made as a private citizen, regardless of the method of creative expression, and in accordance with personal integrity and my perception of the public interest. This disclaimer is to be applied perpetually and retroactively.Hi ASIO roll

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#54 2015-01-16 16:44:41

Berniemac
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Re: Free market regulation

mmm....shiney wrote:

If governments worked then clearly we should be living in a bed of roses and there should not be any budget emergencies, aging population dilemnas, public health crises, crime sprees or any cause to be alert (remembering not to be alarmed lol ).

lol really??

So if cars "worked" there'd never be in breakdowns, flat tires, oil leaks? I guess cars don't work then.

Nothing in the real world is perfect, that doesn't mean it doesn't work.

The reality is government works because it's too big to fail tongue

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#55 2015-01-16 18:15:34

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Free market regulation

smk762 wrote:

I'm not saying current level of gov regs are a better option. Just prefer something better than a war of private armies to resolve disputes.

Why would there be a war of private armies?

smk762 wrote:

And how are concerns in court addressed in the absence of laws?

No one said there would be an absence of laws.

smk762 wrote:

The potato board uses regulations to act as a monopoly. I don't expect a free market to not allow similar monopolistic outcomes if violent solutions are an acceptable method of conducting business.

No one ever suggested that violent solutions would be an acceptable method of conducting business. This view is based upon the assumption that humans are violent and that this violence is crawling under the surface of the skin of all people and it is only the threat of detention or some other form of legal action that prevents us from breaking out and killing every one we come into contact with.

Berniemac wrote:
mmm....shiney wrote:

If governments worked then clearly we should be living in a bed of roses and there should not be any budget emergencies, aging population dilemnas, public health crises, crime sprees or any cause to be alert (remembering not to be alarmed lol ).

lol really??

So if cars "worked" there'd never be in breakdowns, flat tires, oil leaks? I guess cars don't work then.

Nothing in the real world is perfect, that doesn't mean it doesn't work.

The reality is government works because it's too big to fail tongue

But you are suggesting governments work better than the alternative. And as far as your tongue-in-cheek comment about governments being too big to fail, I'll just point you in the direction of the failed communist states of Eastern Europe/Central Asia. roll

To continue your analogy if I get a flat tyre or my car breaks down I repair or replace it. I then have confidence in the repaired or new item that it should offer me an improved set circumstances. The same does not happen with government.

But keep the Devil's advocacy going.  smile

Last edited by mmm....shiney! (2015-01-16 19:56:45)


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#56 2015-01-16 18:19:13

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Free market regulation

SilverPete wrote:

If the market for everything was truly unregulated, maybe there would be an opportunity for a privately funded enforcement company with private military contractors to forcefully discourage certain business activities

Do you think?  roll


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#57 2015-01-16 20:32:24

bordsilver
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Re: Free market regulation

Berniemac wrote:

Sooo...two pages of posts and not one person defending free market regulation?

No fun having a discussion where everyone agrees, so allow me to play devils advocate:

Just as I cant poison someone's drink without the police arresting me, so too businesses can't polute the water supply, or dodgy builders use inferior materials, or create an unsafe working environment for an employee, without govt regulators stepping in.

An unregulated free market doesn't account for criminals or short sighted profiteers. I've worked for enough for them to know if there weren't laws and police enforcing them (worksafe etc), working conditions for the average Australian would be terrible.

Look at the average standard of living in free-market havens like Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, vs more leftie pinko countries like Australia, Denmark and Canada.

Here I thought there may actually be some hard questions smile

First, refer back to the opening post.

Second, comparing the circumstances in a developing country to those in a developed country is incorrect in this case because of the large differences in human and physical capital. The regulations of relevance come with a cost that cannot be borne by the average poor person. Pretty much all activities come with some level of risk and only after capital accumulation and wealth growth can expensive regulations even be considered, so there are 'grades of safety' in the ways people do things. This is the reality. Most Bangladeshi's can't afford or are unwilling to pay (or effectively unable to due to other socio-political factors) the cost for reducing the risk of injury/fraud/contamination just as most garment factories can't afford to pay for air conditioning for their staff. We are similarly constrained, but thanks to prior success in accumulating productive  physical and human capital our limits are in areas like not everyone being able to afford to drive Volvos.

I say it is a nonsense to attempt to claim that our standard of living compared to places like Bangladesh is thanks to regulations rather than things like private ownership of capital, a strong rule of law with efficient contract enforcement and property right protection, freedom from corruption, relative freedom to trade, relative freedom from wealth destroying price controls, etc.


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

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#58 2015-01-16 20:38:10

bordsilver
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Re: Free market regulation

BTW free market regulation is a separate topic to the government being in charge of law and order or national defence. One can have both (but as Hawkeye has pointed out in the past, the monopolistic nature of the government right to make Law is at the root of why it is then lobbied and cajoled and inevitably abuses its privilege to make regulation and immoral laws such as banning potato farmers from growing too much food for people <the horror yikes >).

Last edited by bordsilver (2015-01-16 21:01:34)


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

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#59 2015-01-16 20:45:06

bordsilver
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Re: Free market regulation

Berniemac wrote:

The reality is government works because it's too big to fail tongue

Technically no government is too big to fail (take the Roman Empire for example). But the main interest of a government is in maintaining the existence of government no matter the cost.


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

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#60 2015-01-16 21:16:54

Newtosilver
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Re: Free market regulation

People talk about the free market as if it is a living, breathing thing, the free market is a product of man's making. People manipulate markets, we hear about it all the time, the reason there is regulation is because of past experience of people and companies being A holes.

The free market used to be you have 2 cows and a bull, you then get 2 calves. You then keep a calf and sell one for profit and you have 2 cows, a bull and a calf and you build your herd and make a profit to live off.

In your "Free Market" you have 2 cow and a bull, you sell futures based on the fact that you will get 8 calves over 4 years so you sell those 8 calves now for a market price 10% above today's price because you and the buyer believes the price of beef will increase. You then use the cash from the sale of the 8 calves to invest in derivatives based on a 32% return due to the increase of oil which you expect over the next 2 years. You also sell the 2 cows and the bull now and recieve the cash but delivery of the animals in 2 years because you expect the money from the derivatives to be payed in 18 months and you can then use the profits from the derivatives to pay the penalties from not delivering the 8 calves which you have already sold.

You need an extra $200,000.00 though to buy a piece of land in Chile in the new Libertarian paradise that they are starting so you get investors to invest $200,000.00 based on the return from the derivatives in the future.

The fella in Chile you pay in Bitcoin and Gold bullion and he rips you off. And since there is no regulation and nothing is traceable he is home free.

6 months down the track you derivatives have died in the poo poo and you are going to loose the 2 cows and the bull. You are broke and the investors have lost their cash, and it is a mess.

You are bankrupt but you only lost 2 cows and a bull, people have lost a huge amount of cash which you have borrowed so it is really not that big of a deal. However the people who invested everything they have or are acting for other investors have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars.

The reply - take me to court lol. However taking the person to court archives nothing because there are no assets and no-one has any money left to take anyone to court.

Oh but they should have done their due diligence............. That is impossible becasue people lie and make things so complicated you can not get to the bottom of how things are actually being done.

The free market should actually be called the manipulated market.


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#61 2015-01-16 21:56:29

bordsilver
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Re: Free market regulation

Yay strawmen.

bordsilver wrote:

Importantly, when viewing from a free market or natural law perspective there is still "regulation". Being pro-free market or pro-natural rights does not mean being anti-regulation. Regulation naturally exists within businesses and between parties for many sound reasons. Instead, free market regulation means to not allow coercive restrictions on people's peaceful activities that do not interfere with the rights of others.


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

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#62 2015-01-16 22:04:50

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Free market regulation

Newtosilver wrote:

the free market is a product of man's making.

And the regulated market is.................???????  roll


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#63 2015-01-16 22:09:15

bordsilver
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Re: Free market regulation

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:

the free market is a product of man's making.

And the regulated market is.................???????  roll

A product of faith?


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

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#64 2015-01-16 23:12:55

Newtosilver
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Re: Free market regulation

bordsilver wrote:

Yay strawmen.

bordsilver wrote:

Importantly, when viewing from a free market or natural law perspective there is still "regulation". Being pro-free market or pro-natural rights does not mean being anti-regulation. Regulation naturally exists within businesses and between parties for many sound reasons. Instead, free market regulation means to not allow coercive restrictions on people's peaceful activities that do not interfere with the rights of others.


Real life it is called, you read something in a book and seem to take it as the gospel truth without actually thinking about consequences of actions or people who don't follow the "rules" that are in your book.

Luckily people like you have very little say in how things are run smile


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#65 2015-01-16 23:33:46

boyd_05
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Re: Free market regulation

Newtosilver wrote:

Luckily people like you have very little say in how things are run smile

Yeah, its the people that lie, cheat and steal their way into positions of power that have a say in how things are run.

Talk about not living in reality...

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#66 2015-01-18 03:13:48

Berniemac
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Re: Free market regulation

Lol and I thought I was fairly Libertarian in my politics, but I sound like Karl Marx next to you lot tongue

do the guys arguing against any government regulations for businesses and markets consider themselves minarchists or anarchists?

what are your thoughts on my original point that in a minarchist government with police and courts, poisoning someone would still get you locked up.

In an anachist society a private DRO rent-a-cop would Michael Brown you.

what difference is there from that and a business dumping lead paint in the water supply

in short shouldnt the same limitations on an individuals actions be the same for businesses and markets?

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#67 2015-01-18 04:47:55

bordsilver
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Re: Free market regulation

Berniemac wrote:

Lol and I thought I was fairly Libertarian in my politics, but I sound like Karl Marx next to you lot tongue

do the guys arguing against any government regulations for businesses and markets consider themselves minarchists or anarchists?

what are your thoughts on my original point that in a minarchist government with police and courts, poisoning someone would still get you locked up.

In an anachist society a private DRO rent-a-cop would Michael Brown you.

what difference is there from that and a business dumping lead paint in the water supply

in short shouldnt the same limitations on an individuals actions be the same for businesses and markets?

The things you are raising are a separate issue to what I am talking about. As I defined at the start, "free market regulation means to not allow coercive restrictions on people's peaceful activities that do not interfere with the rights of others". Your examples are the realm of criminal conduct - ie where people's activities infringe on the rights of others. In a minarchy, the government can still have a geographic monopoly on being the ultimate arbitrator of disputes and a monopoly on Law while still having free market regulation. Indeed, the role of government in a minarchist society is to protect individuals from violence, fraud or theft and that's about it. It doesn't have the right to regulate otherwise peaceful activities such as stipulating the quantity of food a potato farmer can grow without being fined.

Whether or not peaceful, well-functioning societies need an organisation (ie government) to have a geographic monopoly on Law and ultimate dispute arbitration is a completely separate topic (as is the issue of "national" defence) which is what separates minarchy from nonarchy/voluntarism.

Last edited by bordsilver (2015-01-18 17:16:50)


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#68 2015-01-18 04:54:33

SpacePete
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Re: Free market regulation

Businesses in Sydney already use threats to force desperate people to work illegal hours, sometimes for less than 50% of the award wage. I imagine things would get far worse without even token regulatory restrictions.


Catus amat piscem, sed non vult tingere plantas

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#69 2015-01-18 05:11:47

bordsilver
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Re: Free market regulation

SilverPete wrote:

Businesses in Sydney already use threats to force desperate people to work illegal hours, sometimes for less than 50% of the award wage. I imagine things would get far worse without even token regulatory restrictions.

That's nothing. At times I work 36 hour days at zero rates without any threat of violence. (The issues with owning your own business where your income depends solely on the customer being satisfied.) [The difference of course is that unlike some other professions doing so does not create a physical safety hazard to the worker - ie me - or to others.]

More seriously, you are now into the realm of effective enforcement of laws against extortion or encouragement of safe work procedures. This is one of the legitimate reasons for unions. Separately however, as I posted in the medical care before the state thread, there would be a natural role for the worker's health insurers to take over such roles from government and their inspectors and recommend their own safe working practices/regulations (as happened in the past). The primary difference is that there would be greater competition with the money being paid directly by those who benefit.

Last edited by bordsilver (2015-01-18 05:13:17)


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#70 2015-02-05 08:39:52

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Free market regulation

John mentions Eat With, a restaurant in your own home. My wife tells me such for profit gatherings were common amongst workers in the industry in the past, but it was word-of-mouth and you generally knew the others or knew of them. There are two members in Australia, one in Manly NSW and one in Richmond Vic. I'm not sure how they circumvent liquor laws if they serve alcohol as part of their meal, there doesn't appear to be any Contact to ask questions.

http://www.eatwith.com/


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#71 2015-02-05 17:57:25

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Free market regulation

Joined EatWith and sent them this email:

Hi

I have recently joined EatWith and have posted about the service on an online forum in
which I am active. I'm curious how hosts can circumvent liquor licensing laws if they
serve alcohol and guests are paying for an event.

Cheers

Their response:

Thank you for your note and your interest in EatWith.

In regards to licenses and taxes, because different countries, and sometimes different regions, have their own particular regulations, we unfortunately cannot provide any recommendation on this matter. Each host is responsible for managing his or her own legalities, taxes and regulatory compliance. If you have any questions, we recommend consulting with an accredited tax or legal advisor.

Tasty regards,
The EatWith Team

Any legal eagles here with an opinion?

As John Stossel says, it's unlikely the regulators are even aware of the existence of EatWith, so it'll probably be some time before any direction from them is given to the company or the hosts.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#72 2015-03-15 07:12:57

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Free market regulation

How a pharmacy monopoly pushes up your medicine price and makes pharmacies million dollar businesses

THEY are the taxpayer funded pharmacy millionaires, 941 chemist shops making more than a million dollars a year from a system that's hurting consumers and taxpayers.

A shocking audit report has revealed how the taxpayer funded $15.4 billion pharmacy agreement that stifles competition is turning one in six pharmacies into million dollar businesses.

The same system is forcing consumers to pay inflated prices for medicines and sees a $1.10 pack of aspirin cost a patient $13.31.

snip

Pharmacists can become millionaires because a government Community Pharmacy Agreement gives pharmacy owners monopoly status.

State rules say only a pharmacist can own a pharmacy and a ministerial determination in the Community Pharmacy Agreement bans supermarkets from containing chemists.

Location rules says no chemist can open within 1.5 kilometres from an existing chemist.

In some locations chemists are closer than this because they were established before the rule took effect.

It is these rules that ensure new pharmacy graduates can rarely afford to open their own because chemist shops often sell for over a million dollars.

There are more than 25,000 registered pharmacists but less than 4,000 pharmacy owners.

No chemist can open within 1.5 kilometres from an existing chemist. Picture: Toby Zerna Source: News Corp Australia

"Removing these location rules would allow new pharmacies, increase competition and thereby benefit consumers," says Melbourne University Economist Professor Philip Clarke.

http://www.news.com.au/national/how-a-p … 7262606406


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#73 2015-04-18 23:33:11

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Free market regulation

Medical licensing: political control over access

4/3/2015

0 Comments

BRIAN BEDKOBER

ABSTRACT: It is inevitable that a licensing process controlled by government must sooner or later result in the exploitation of the process to serve political ends. It ought also to be unsurprising when deliberate attempts to restrict entry to a particular trade or profession raises prices and creates turf wars whilst achieving very little in terms of patient safety. Regulatory controls inhibit innovation and they prevent patients from gaining access to a wider range of treatment options. In the case of health care, the features of a centralized licensing process are predictably exacerbated when they are combined with a universal taxpayer-funded health system. When government finds that it is simply impossible to fund all the health care promises that it has made it necessarily restricts access to care on a collective basis – including access to the best trained providers.

AUTHOR: Brian Bedkober is a medical doctor who served as the National President of the Private Doctors of Australia, which started in 1968 as a break-away group from within the Australian Medical Association. The organisation took umbrage at the AMA's readiness to negotiate with government on matters that were considered beyond the proper scope of government control.

http://jppfaustralia.weebly.com/subscribe.html


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#74 2015-09-03 03:25:10

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Free market regulation

The Livingstone Shire Council has rejected a development application for a new shopping complex opposite an existing one. Council in their wisdom believe that the proposal would adversely impact other businesses.

SOME residents and business owners won't have a bar of a proposal for a new shopping precinct on the Capricorn Coast.

Before Livingstone Shire Council today is a proposal to develop a section of land, on the corner of Percy Ford St and the Scenic Hwy, where the Poinciana Caravan Park is located, into a nine-shop precinct.

The proposed development is for shops, offices and takeaway food stores, plus parking.

This did not fly well with several business owners, including some at the Cedar Park Shopping Centre, Taranganba, shopping precinct.

They believed that any developments near their businesses would result in economic losses.

An Urban Economics review, conducted on behalf of a group opposing the development application, found adverse impact would happen at other shopping centres.

The review revealed there was a 15% vacancy rate at Cedar Park Shopping Centre....

http://www.themorningbulletin.com.au/ne … e/2720313/

The Cedar Park shopping centre would be directly across the road from the development proposal. All I'll say is that you'd only buy from the Cedar Park supermarket as a last resort ($$$$$$$$), so the consumer misses out because Council is protecting established businesses.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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#75 2015-09-04 08:01:22

mmm....shiney!
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Re: Free market regulation

Summary:

Product regulation

- Explores the assumption that without governments, TV's would blow up and we'd have rat poison in our food, yet there are many industries that experience improvements in quality or increasing consumer satisfaction occurs without any government regulation.

- Individual consumers have preferences about where they want to be on the "spectrum of product characteristics" whether it is a price point, a design feature, a safety feature, longevity, intended usage etc etc. Product regulation restricts choice.

- The FDA and the barriers to entry it creates in delaying consumer access to new beneficial drugs in the name of safety testing. The regulatory process drives up costs and favours incumbents at the expense of new market entrants.

- The interest of profit provides the incentive to supply a safe product.

- The introduction of safety regulations can shift the risk to another situation ie may result in consumers being exposed to other unsafe practices, it may also lead to the belief that regulated substances are dangerous which can deter use.

- alternatives to product regulation: private certification, user reviews, reputation

- the free market is not infallible, there is no Nirvana, only the capacity to better meet consumer need.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

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