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#26 2014-04-27 08:37:50

dagsgarrett
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2010-10-26
Posts: 284
Trades :   

Re: Debt Levy

@wrcmad

You mean talents such as the CEO of companies like these?

685_477957-gfc-lehman-bear-sterns-merrill-fannie-freddie.jpg


You can THINK as much as you like but it's the DOING that counts!

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#27 2014-04-27 08:38:29

willrocks
Silver Stacker
From: Yesterday
Registered: 2012-05-10
Posts: 7,598
Trades :   29 

Re: Debt Levy

trew wrote:
willrocks wrote:

Total Australian Debt: 4,797,176,000,000

where does this figure come from ?

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/


"You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality." - Ayn Rand

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#28 2014-04-27 08:56:44

wrcmad
Silver Stacker
From: Northern NSW
Registered: 2012-01-02
Posts: 6,092
Trades :   118 

Re: Debt Levy

dagsgarrett wrote:

@wrcmad

You mean talents such as the CEO of companies like these?

http://forums.silverstackers.com/upload … reddie.jpg

Nope.
They are all US, and Americans wouldn't know talent if it smashed them in the face. smile


Anything is possible, but not everything is probable.  wink

Manipulation..... If you want to continually subscribe to this idea then get out of precious metals. Only a fool would play a game that is completely rigged. As you still are in the game, I would say that you are not completely convinced of the manipulation ...

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#29 2014-04-27 09:00:00

Newtosilver
Silver Stacker
From: QLD
Registered: 2012-07-05
Posts: 1,731
Trades :   42 

Re: Debt Levy

dagsgarrett wrote:

I did not realise they were paid that much, good money if you can get it.


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

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#30 2014-04-27 09:03:40

wrcmad
Silver Stacker
From: Northern NSW
Registered: 2012-01-02
Posts: 6,092
Trades :   118 

Re: Debt Levy

Newtosilver wrote:
dagsgarrett wrote:

I did not realise they were paid that much, good money if you can get it.

Especially for an unqualified union dick that can talk and bribe their way up the political ladder.

Last edited by wrcmad (2014-04-27 09:03:56)


Anything is possible, but not everything is probable.  wink

Manipulation..... If you want to continually subscribe to this idea then get out of precious metals. Only a fool would play a game that is completely rigged. As you still are in the game, I would say that you are not completely convinced of the manipulation ...

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#31 2014-04-27 09:36:22

BiGs
Verified
From: Sydney
Registered: 2014-01-20
Posts: 764
Trades :   97 
Website

Re: Debt Levy

You're are all forgetting that our money supply has debt inherently attached. Sovereign debt is never meant to be paid off, just maintained. Debt is a pivotal component of our usury economics. We can't rid one and not the other.


"You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete."― Richard Buckminster Fuller

https://www.11thround.com.au/
Website now accepts paypal for the 10% spot lock value. More buyer security without the need for your credit card details to go through another system.

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#32 2014-04-27 09:36:49

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 15,763
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Debt Levy

wrcmad wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:
dagsgarrett wrote:

I did not realise they were paid that much, good money if you can get it.

Especially for an unqualified union dick that can talk and bribe their way up the political ladder.

And especially if you can run the organisation into bankruptcy, yet continue to remain solvent. For the majority of businesses trading insolvent is a crime. Yet..............


3<

"Every day is ordinary, until it isn't."

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#33 2014-04-27 10:49:02

southerncross
Silver Stacker
Registered: 2012-07-26
Posts: 3,370

Re: Debt Levy

Nugget wrote:
Old Codger wrote:

Does everybody think that solving this ALP disaster is going to be painless?


Err - It was the Lib's who baked the turd pie. The greatest largess in living memory / a once in a generation golden age was blown by on tax cuts to the Boomers when they were at peak earnings ( you know... pay for their pension), middle class welfare & expensive housing.

And for the record the MAJORITY of Australians voted Labor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian … tion,_2013 "Coalition" that's Silver and Bronze deciding that together they deserve Gold

As opposed to the Labor/Green/So called independent's that made up the previous Gov't you mean ?

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#34 2014-04-27 12:43:50

DanielM
Silver Stacker
From: Melbourne
Registered: 2012-10-23
Posts: 2,988
Trades :   31 

Re: Debt Levy

Newtosilver wrote:

Australia owes money, it has to be paid back. No-one likes it but it has to happen.

But why should those who have never had a say in what the money is spent on be left to pick up the bill of those who carelessly fritter it away?


Don't be shy....Stack it high!!

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#35 2014-04-28 00:14:54

bordsilver
Silver Stacker
From: The rocks
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 9,514
Trades :   36 

Re: Debt Levy

SilverPete wrote:

+1

And the two most wasteful periods of spending in Australia's history were during liberal governments... both during the Howard government!

lol I can't believe you resurrected that old piece of IMF crap.

First, the common sense interpretation is that given the level of gross public debt, everything else being equal, the budget surplus was too small. But as Costello and Howard pointed out numerous times - once you've paid off all your debt and met all of your government largesse the sensible thing is to return taxpayers money back to them so they shouldn't have been running bigger surpluses anyway.

Second, the "results" from the methodology has as many holes as a Craig Thomson alibi. They did three statistical tests. In one, it showed the "rho" coefficient for Australia has never been statistically significantly negative (Table 8). In other words in the whole period from 1937 to 2011 the test said Australian fiscal policy has been prudent. In another test (Table 13) it found exactly zero periods of "strong profligacy" (and only one of "strong prudence" between 1931-1935) and the third (Table 12) is the one people like Andrew Leigh were crowing about and it is actually a weaker test trying to discern "sudden changes in behavior and influential observations in opposite directions in close proximity to each other". But in the absence of significant results from the other tests, it is really quite weak. (In addition, it actually specifically excluded the post-Howard era.) As Henry Ergas said:

Indeed, that test gives many bizarre results. For example, it not only finds Italian governments to be consistent models of fiscal rectitude, but also singles out 2002-05 as years of fiscal prudence in Britain, even though that was when the Labour government's budget deficit blew out of control.

Precisely because of the difficulties of placing much weight on any such measure, the paper provides a table that combines its tests – and which does not identify any fiscal imprudence in the Howard years.

"You don't need to be a professor of economics to know John Howard was more fiscally prudent than Silvio Berlusconi. And if an econometric study suggested the opposite, you would look very carefully at its data and methods before placing much weight on its results. Unless, that is, you were the Fairfax press and the ABC."


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

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#36 2014-04-28 00:30:09

SpacePete
Silver Stacker
Registered: 2014-03-01
Posts: 13,437
Trades :   122 
Website

Re: Debt Levy

Look at Australia's net debt to GDB compared to other OECD nations. The "budget emergency" is a lie on a grand scale.

V0YtnPG.jpg

www.glennmurray.com.au/abbotts-war-on-the-rest-of-us-and-why-theres-no-need/


Catus amat piscem, sed non vult tingere plantas

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#37 2014-04-28 00:49:25

Big A.D.
Silver Stacker
From: Sydney
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 6,384
Trades :   51 

Re: Debt Levy

bordsilver wrote:

First, the common sense interpretation is that given the level of gross public debt, everything else being equal, the budget surplus was too small. But as Costello and Howard pointed out numerous times - once you've paid off all your debt and met all of your government largesse the sensible thing is to return taxpayers money back to them so they shouldn't have been running bigger surpluses anyway.

Exactly.

Doing that means you can lower taxes and everyone can leverage up the extra money and get a stinking great mortgage instead.

Of course doing that means that you end up with a structural deficit rather than just a cyclical one and then you have to come up with a Temporary Debt Levy® instead of raising taxes back up to where they were in the first place.


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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#38 2014-04-28 00:55:58

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 15,763
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Debt Levy

It's not a lie, the countries circled below are fukt. Even the AFR said that.

753_v0ytnpg.jpg

On a serious note, stating that our debt is not a problem because the OECD or Portugal's debt crisis is even worse is a bit pathetic.

Last edited by mmm....shiney! (2014-04-28 00:58:09)


3<

"Every day is ordinary, until it isn't."

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#39 2014-04-28 02:05:44

trew
Silver Stacker
From: Melbern
Registered: 2011-08-24
Posts: 3,958
Trades :   

Re: Debt Levy

willrocks wrote:
trew wrote:
willrocks wrote:

Total Australian Debt: 4,797,176,000,000

where does this figure come from ?

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/

Then that is mostly private debt

Of course there are lots of interest payments

How else can the banks make their huge profits ?

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#40 2014-04-28 02:07:09

willrocks
Silver Stacker
From: Yesterday
Registered: 2012-05-10
Posts: 7,598
Trades :   29 

Re: Debt Levy

trew wrote:
willrocks wrote:
trew wrote:

where does this figure come from ?

http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/

Then that is mostly private debt

Of course there are lots of interest payments

How else can the banks make their huge profits ?

I never stated it wasn't private debt. It's "total debt".


"You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality." - Ayn Rand

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#41 2014-04-28 02:30:42

Old Codger
Silver Stacker
Registered: 2011-05-13
Posts: 5,128

Re: Debt Levy

Errol,


"It wont be painless paying for the bank bailout in the USA...Where do the Australian banks borrow the $$ to fuel the housing and retail spending in Australia.?"


The OZ banks usually borrow on the NYC and London Bond Markets,  at the going rate whatever it is at the time. Sometimes,  I think they float on the Zurich market.




"By the way OC was it the USA RED OR BLUE TEAM THAT GOT THE USA INTO $17trillion debt plus derivatives..  smile  When the USA sneezes, Australia catches a cold was the old saying an I think it still applies today."


Catch a cold?  I am sure it applies more so today than 20 or 30 years ago and in far more countries.  The G20 all rely on each other, and are interdependent. As  for the $17 Trillion,  it has accumulated over many Presidential terms,  including a doubling by Ronald Reagan from 1 to 2 Trillion and that was an outrage.

They have all added to it and Obama also doubled it in his term, so far!  He will take it to about $19 trillion or even more  before he leaves.

Bill Clinton likes to boast that he was the last Prez to have a surplus,  but ask him about all his 'off-budget' stuff that never got counted.  US Budgets are a sham and NONE are fair dinkum anymore.  The off budget stuff is almost as big as the on-budget.



OC


"The Australian Labor Party is a democratic socialist party and has the objective of the democratic socialisation of industry, production, distribution and exchange, to the extent necessary to eliminate exploitation and other anti-social features in these fields."   -  ALP Constitution.

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#42 2014-04-28 03:40:32

willrocks
Silver Stacker
From: Yesterday
Registered: 2012-05-10
Posts: 7,598
Trades :   29 

Re: Debt Levy

SilverPete wrote:

Look at Australia's net debt to GDB compared to other OECD nations. The "budget emergency" is a lie on a grand scale.

http://i.imgur.com/V0YtnPG.jpg

www.glennmurray.com.au/abbotts-war-on-the-rest-of-us-and-why-theres-no-need/

The graph you posted is either wildly inaccurate or out-of-date. Should be closer to this now:

6641_debt-to-gdp.png

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/austral … ebt-to-gdp


"You can ignore reality, but you cannot ignore the consequences of ignoring reality." - Ayn Rand

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#43 2014-04-28 03:42:45

wrcmad
Silver Stacker
From: Northern NSW
Registered: 2012-01-02
Posts: 6,092
Trades :   118 

Re: Debt Levy

willrocks wrote:

The graph you posted is either wildly inaccurate or out-of-date. Should be closer to this now:

I note you very appropriately changed the bar colour from blue to red too. Fitting. smile


Anything is possible, but not everything is probable.  wink

Manipulation..... If you want to continually subscribe to this idea then get out of precious metals. Only a fool would play a game that is completely rigged. As you still are in the game, I would say that you are not completely convinced of the manipulation ...

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#44 2014-04-28 04:25:00

bordsilver
Silver Stacker
From: The rocks
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 9,514
Trades :   36 

Re: Debt Levy

Big A.D. wrote:
bordsilver wrote:

First, the common sense interpretation is that given the level of gross public debt, everything else being equal, the budget surplus was too small. But as Costello and Howard pointed out numerous times - once you've paid off all your debt and met all of your government largesse the sensible thing is to return taxpayers money back to them so they shouldn't have been running bigger surpluses anyway.

Exactly.

Doing that means you can lower taxes and everyone can leverage up the extra money and get a stinking great mortgage instead.

Of course doing that means that you end up with a structural deficit rather than just a cyclical one and then you have to come up with a Temporary Debt Levy® instead of raising taxes back up to where they were in the first place.

I think you know by now that I'm not claiming that there wasn't largesse and waste in the way they returned our own cash back to us, but we had plenty of temporary levies under Swan but absolutely no spending restraint to go with them. That's allowed the debt to balloon.


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

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#45 2014-04-28 05:26:46

Big A.D.
Silver Stacker
From: Sydney
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 6,384
Trades :   51 

Re: Debt Levy

bordsilver wrote:
Big A.D. wrote:
bordsilver wrote:

First, the common sense interpretation is that given the level of gross public debt, everything else being equal, the budget surplus was too small. But as Costello and Howard pointed out numerous times - once you've paid off all your debt and met all of your government largesse the sensible thing is to return taxpayers money back to them so they shouldn't have been running bigger surpluses anyway.

Exactly.

Doing that means you can lower taxes and everyone can leverage up the extra money and get a stinking great mortgage instead.

Of course doing that means that you end up with a structural deficit rather than just a cyclical one and then you have to come up with a Temporary Debt Levy® instead of raising taxes back up to where they were in the first place.

I think you know by now that I'm not claiming that there wasn't largesse and waste in the way they returned our own cash back to us, but we had plenty of temporary levies under Swan but absolutely no spending restraint to go with them. That's allowed the debt to balloon.

Special levies to cover individual projects (like meeting the needs of disabled people) or random acts of nature (like the Queensland floods) are appropriate ways to pay for those things and governments enact them all the time.

Counter-cyclical spending to lessen or, in our case, avoid a major recession produces a cyclical deficit and the resultant debt gets paid back over the business cycle until there is a surplus (which, again, gets spent during a recession to stimulate economic activity).

Squirrels have a brain smaller than a pea and they've managed to figure out how to save food during the summer and then eat it during the winter.

We don't have a cyclical deficit problem, we have a structural deficit problem.

Even after adjusting for the business cycle, we take in less tax than we need to pay for all the stuff we want. The Howard-Costello government created that problem by going too far with their tax cuts and the Rudd-Swan/Gillard-Swan government couldn't fix it without working directly against their counter-cyclical spending program. Couldn't, wouldn't, whatever. It didn't get fixed during their term in government.

So here we are now with a need for more revenue. And sure, we could do with less wasteful spending, but if we get good value from the money we do spend then there is just the problem of figuring out where that money comes from.

Honestly, calling this a "debt levy" is just ridiculous. It's a tax. We all know it's a tax. Pretending it's not a tax is stupid and pretending Abbott and Hockey aren't breaking an election promise of not raising taxes is just as stupid. We should be more pissed at them for making a promise they had no hope of keeping (and ourselves for being suckered into believing them) than the fact that they actually need to break the idiotic promise in order to build the nation's finances back up again.

Seriously, Hockey just needs to grow some balls and talk to us like adults: "We need to raise taxes to pay for all the stuff you guys want".

Fine. Great. Whatever. So long as they don't spend what they do get on complete crap then, yes, I have managed to get my head around the concept of "paying money for quality stuff".


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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#46 2014-04-28 05:34:35

bordsilver
Silver Stacker
From: The rocks
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 9,514
Trades :   36 

Re: Debt Levy

I prefer special levies. In fact I'd prefer every government "service" was funded by specific charges rather than it all going into a big slush fund.

RE Cyclical spending is a fraud. I know you don't think so but it is just an empty phrase to allow politicians to not to have to make serious adjustments in their spending in the near term. "Why? Because it's the cycle stupid. How long is the cycle? Turtled if I know. How deep is the cycle? Turtled if I know. How can I tell if we're actually in a cyclical downturn rather than an actual structural shift in the economy? Turtled if I know. etc."


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

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#47 2014-04-28 05:35:30

wrcmad
Silver Stacker
From: Northern NSW
Registered: 2012-01-02
Posts: 6,092
Trades :   118 

Re: Debt Levy

Big A.D. wrote:

Special levies to cover individual projects .... or random acts of nature (like the Queensland floods) are appropriate ways to pay for those things and governments enact them all the time.

OMG. Totally disagree.
You will never convince me of that. lol

Last edited by wrcmad (2014-04-28 05:35:44)


Anything is possible, but not everything is probable.  wink

Manipulation..... If you want to continually subscribe to this idea then get out of precious metals. Only a fool would play a game that is completely rigged. As you still are in the game, I would say that you are not completely convinced of the manipulation ...

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#48 2014-04-28 06:08:26

Big A.D.
Silver Stacker
From: Sydney
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 6,384
Trades :   51 

Re: Debt Levy

wrcmad wrote:
Big A.D. wrote:

Special levies to cover individual projects .... or random acts of nature (like the Queensland floods) are appropriate ways to pay for those things and governments enact them all the time.

OMG. Totally disagree.
You will never convince me of that. lol

What the money raised from special levies goes towards varies greatly, but there is an important difference between having a whip round and creating a sensible budget based on reasonable forecasts.


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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#49 2014-04-28 06:28:38

Shaddam IV
Silver Stacker
From: House Corrino
Registered: 2010-03-22
Posts: 6,255

Re: Debt Levy

What would actually be fair is a levy imposed on everyone who voted for Labor and the Greens. They are responsible for the debt.

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#50 2014-04-28 06:44:26

bja
Silver Stacker
Registered: 2013-12-05
Posts: 423
Trades :   26 

Re: Debt Levy

Are we still just guessing or have something been announced? not found anything official yet

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