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#1 2013-10-12 06:06:04

Credit Crunch
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How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

If you dont pay $500 in income tax, the ATO will treat you worse than a drug dealer.  Google refuses to pay billions in tax and its ignored.  Ebay is similar. The result? You the individual pay up to 58% in tax (when you consider 48% income + 10% when you spend it in GST) while Google, Ebay et al pay 5%.  If these corporate shonks were held to account, our taxes could be so much lower.

----------------------------------------

Google funneled €8.8 billion ($12 billion) of royalty payments to Bermuda last year, a quarter more than in 2011, underlining the rapid expansion of a strategy that has saved the U.S. internet group billions of dollars in tax.

By routing royalty payments to Bermuda, Google reduces its overseas tax rate to about five percent, less than half the rate in already low-tax Ireland, where it books most of its international sales.

The figures were revealed in the latest filings by one of Google's Dutch subsidiaries, and means that royalty payments made to Bermuda – where the company holds its non-U.S. intellectual property – have doubled over the past three years. This increase reflects the rapid growth of Google's global business.

The company has been at the center of the international controversy over corporate tax avoidance because it earns "substantially all" its foreign income in Ireland and pays relatively little tax in the countries where its customers are based.

It has also faced criticism for its use of a "double Irish" structure that exploits differences between the U.S. and Irish tax codes to move the profits from Ireland to Bermuda. It also routes the profits through the Netherlands to avoid withholding taxes, using a structure known as a "Dutch sandwich". Google declined to comment.

Revelations about Google's tax planning have stoked widespread public anger, prompting politicians to launch an international crackdown on corporate profit shifting. The problems raised by digital companies is one of the central issues being addressed by the initiative launched by the G20 group of leading economies this summer.

In principle, multinationals such as Google that pay relatively little tax overseas will face big bills in the U.S. when they bring their earnings back to the U.S. But Google has not provided for extra U.S. tax because it intends to permanently reinvest $33 billion of offshore profits outside the U.S.

The new figures come from the accounts of Google Netherlands Holdings, which represents the "Dutch sandwich" part of the tax structure. It received €8.6 billion in royalties from Google Ireland Ltd and €232.8 million in royalties from Google's Singapore operation. All but €10.4 million of this was paid out to Google Ireland Holdings, a company that is incorporated in Ireland but controlled in Bermuda.

Differences between the Irish and U.S. tax codes mean that this dual-resident company is viewed as Irish for U.S. tax purposes but Bermudan for Irish purposes. It acquired much of Google's intellectual property in 2003, which it licensed to Google Ireland Ltd, a Dublin-based business that is at the heart of its global operation. The business, which employed 2,199 people last year, paid €17 million in Irish corporation tax, having reported pre-tax profits of €153.9 on turnover of €15.5 billion.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101104483

Last edited by Credit Crunch (2013-10-12 06:06:55)

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#2 2013-10-12 06:54:25

House
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

This inforgraph might interest you.

As Shiney said, good on them. Taking advantage of legal tax loops is acceptable in my eyes. Google employs 2,000+ people, they should be rewarded for doing so. They're also paying the employees wage of which the tax is taken from. If these people were unemployed, the gov wouldn't be able to take that 46%.

I think it's more of a case that if the profligate government shonks were held to account our taxes would be much lower.


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#3 2013-10-12 11:29:59

Big A.D.
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

House wrote:

Google employs 2,000+ people, they should be rewarded for doing so.

They are rewarded. They get the benefit of their employees skill and expertise.

That is the nature of employment: you pay someone a wage, they do the work you require them to do.

You don't get a prize or a gold star and you certainly shouldn't get an effective 85% discount on your tax bill.


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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#4 2013-10-12 13:31:31

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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

Oops damn Thank You button. lol Meant to quote.


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#5 2013-10-12 13:52:24

mmm....shiney!
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

Big A.D. wrote:

They are rewarded. They get the benefit of their employees skill and expertise.

That is the nature of employment: you pay someone a wage, they do the work you require them to do.

You don't get a prize or a gold star and you certainly shouldn't get an effective 85% discount on your tax bill.

Businesses don't exist for the reward of employing people. Profit is the only motive and governments shouldn't thieve it.


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#6 2013-10-12 19:15:30

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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

Yeah like everyone I dont like paying tax.  But I feel I pay tax through every bodily orifice and these multinational conglomerates essentially dont pay any tax which just shifts the burden onto the likes of me (and I bet most of you), the working stiff.

Governments are always needing the $XXX for hospitals, schools, the army, courts etc etc so the long and the short of it, if the likes of Google dont pay, then its me the poor 9-5 worker who does.  And frankly, I'd rather google, ebay & Co pay their share.

If its "good on em" for skirting the tax law, then, the tax law needs to be changed so they cough up their share and take some of the burden of the private average wage citizen!

-endith the rant-

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#7 2013-10-12 19:19:42

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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Big A.D. wrote:

They are rewarded. They get the benefit of their employees skill and expertise.

That is the nature of employment: you pay someone a wage, they do the work you require them to do.

You don't get a prize or a gold star and you certainly shouldn't get an effective 85% discount on your tax bill.

Businesses don't exist for the reward of employing people. Profit is the only motive and governments shouldn't thieve it.

Business have 1 motivation, the maximisation of profit for the shareholders (and usually top executives as well).  The fact that google. ebay etc evade/minimize their tax obligations means that the executives and shareholders get super normal profits instead of it going back to the country from which it was raised.

ie.  All the top executives/shareholders are no doubt Americans who just get richer and richer instead of paying their fair whack of taxation in the country from which they took their revenue, eg. Australia.

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#8 2013-10-12 19:31:19

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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%


Anyone who lobbies a government in order to get the government to ban something is in my view an undesirable person. And I mean anyone. - Kris Sayce

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#9 2013-10-12 19:48:20

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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

No-one (or company) in their right mind wants to "give" more money than they have to the Government in taxes.  BUT those who can minimize/avoid taxes are the rich and big corporations because it is they that can afford high paid accountants and offshore bank accounts.  The poor average worker cannot.

The solution? Government actually working for the "working Australians" and changing the tax law to stop these groups making the rest of us pay higher taxes than we should.  Is what ebay, google et al doing right now legal? Probably. Thus the law needs changing.

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#10 2013-10-12 19:53:57

bordsilver
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

Or just stopping the spending and reduce everyone's taxes. The enemy is the Government attacking our incomes and wealth, not those who minimise.


Anyone who lobbies a government in order to get the government to ban something is in my view an undesirable person. And I mean anyone. - Kris Sayce

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#11 2013-10-12 19:57:21

Big A.D.
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Big A.D. wrote:

They are rewarded. They get the benefit of their employees skill and expertise.

That is the nature of employment: you pay someone a wage, they do the work you require them to do.

You don't get a prize or a gold star and you certainly shouldn't get an effective 85% discount on your tax bill.

Businesses don't exist for the reward of employing people. Profit is the only motive and governments shouldn't thieve it.

I'm well aware of what the motivation behind businesses is and if you want to pay Google's share of the nation's tax bill then you go right ahead.

Personally, I'm happy to pay my own way in tax and let Google pay theirs.


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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#12 2013-10-12 20:01:22

bordsilver
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

^ I'd much rather pay the 5% of income or whatever that Google pays. Where do I sign up?

Edit: But seriously, Google DOES pay their share. It's a mathematical certainty.

Last edited by bordsilver (2013-10-12 20:02:46)


Anyone who lobbies a government in order to get the government to ban something is in my view an undesirable person. And I mean anyone. - Kris Sayce

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#13 2013-10-12 20:02:53

mmm....shiney!
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

@Big AD I resent paying my taxes, therefore it would be inconsistent of me to resent Google and other multi-nationals minimising their taxes.

Last edited by mmm....shiney! (2013-10-12 20:03:18)


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#14 2013-10-12 20:30:43

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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

This'll blow your socks off.

Peter Schiff on US income tax and how much it started out at...

Last edited by Clawhammer (2013-10-12 20:31:02)


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#15 2013-10-12 21:05:24

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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

$387 Billion is how much the Australia Government raises in tax.  $175 Billion or 45% is in income tax and $74 Billion or 19% is in company tax.

If google, ebay etc dont pay their share of the pie, it will just be raised by the Government elsewhere.

Personally, if an Aussie small business has to pay 30% on profits to the Government, so should a multi-billion dollar corporation, not 5% like they do.

And those who say $387 Billion is too much revenue raised by the Government, thats fine.  Please list what cuts you'd make for say $100 Billion less in taxes to be offset.   The "war on waste" and "pollies perks" should account for about $1 Billion, lets see what services the remaining $99 Billion will be cut from.

What would be cut first? Defense? Education? Aged Pension? Health Care? Customs ? Perhaps roads?  List away!

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#16 2013-10-12 21:12:16

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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

Clawhammer wrote:

This'll blow your socks off.

Peter Schiff on US income tax and how much it started out at...

What he fails to tell you is the variety of other taxes that used to be in existence.  Namely tariffs which used to be sky high as protectionism was the name of the main source of Government revenue in the 19th and early 20th centuries/

Tariffs accounted for about 95% of all US Government revenue at one point before 1913 when income tax was introduced.  Today, tariffs account for only about 1% of US Government revenue.

So its all well and good to say "income tax is now XXX higher than 100 years ago" but where's the balancing statement that in 1913 tarrifs accounted for 44% of US Government revenue and just 1% today.

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#17 2013-10-12 21:14:47

mmm....shiney!
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

Credit Crunch wrote:

And those who say $387 Billion is too much revenue raised by the Government, thats fine.  Please list what cuts you'd make for say $100 Billion less in taxes to be offset.   The "war on waste" and "pollies perks" should account for about $1 Billion, lets see what services the remaining $99 Billion will be cut from.

What would be cut first? Defense? Education? Aged Pension? Health Care? Customs ? Perhaps roads?  List away!

Yes!!!!!! I'm so glad you asked!!!!!!

1. The ATO
2. Health: privatise hospitals
3. Education: privatise schools
4. Roads: privatise roads, sell the traffic lights and bridges
5. Defence: private contractors
6. Police: private contractors
7. Public service

The list could go on.


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#18 2013-10-12 21:16:22

bordsilver
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

Credit Crunch wrote:

$387 Billion is how much the Australia Government raises in tax.  $175 Billion or 45% is in income tax and $74 Billion or 19% is in company tax.

If google, ebay etc dont pay their share of the pie, it will just be raised by the Government elsewhere.

Personally, if an Aussie small business has to pay 30% on profits to the Government, so should a multi-billion dollar corporation, not 5% like they do.

And those who say $387 Billion is too much revenue raised by the Government, thats fine.  Please list what cuts you'd make for say $100 Billion less in taxes to be offset.   The "war on waste" and "pollies perks" should account for about $1 Billion, lets see what services the remaining $99 Billion will be cut from.

What would be cut first? Defense? Education? Aged Pension? Health Care? Customs ? Perhaps roads?  List away!

I'm sure there's already a plethora of lists on old threads, but to save $387b in one go I'd cut the government. Simple.


Anyone who lobbies a government in order to get the government to ban something is in my view an undesirable person. And I mean anyone. - Kris Sayce

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#19 2013-10-12 21:18:43

mmm....shiney!
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

Credit Crunch wrote:

Tariffs accounted for about 95% of all US Government revenue at one point before 1913 when income tax was introduced.

And the operating budget of governments 100 years ago?


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#20 2013-10-12 21:22:25

bordsilver
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

Here's an old list of policies:

1 Repeal the carbon tax, and don't replace it. It will be one thing to remove the burden of the carbon tax from the Australian economy. But if it is just replaced by another costly scheme, most of the benefits will be undone.
2 Abolish the Department of Climate Change
3 Abolish the Clean Energy Fund
4 Repeal Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act
5 Abandon Australia's bid for a seat on the United Nations Security Council Too late for this one – Maybe add "Prohibit Government involvement in the UN Agenda 21"
6 Repeal the renewable energy target
7 Return income taxing powers to the states
8 Abolish the Commonwealth Grants Commission
9 Abolish the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission
10 Withdraw from the Kyoto Protocol
11 Introduce fee competition to Australian universities
12 Repeal the National Curriculum
13 Introduce competing private secondary school curriculums
14 Abolish the Australian Communications and Media Authority (ACMA)
15 Eliminate laws that require radio and television broadcasters to be 'balanced'
16 Abolish television spectrum licensing and devolve spectrum management to the common law
17 End local content requirements for Australian television stations
18 Eliminate family tax benefits
19 Abandon the paid parental leave scheme
20 Means-test Medicare
21 End all corporate welfare and subsidies by closing the Department of Industry, Innovation, Science, Research and Tertiary Education
22 Introduce voluntary voting
23 End mandatory disclosures on political donations
24 End media blackout in final days of election campaigns
25 End public funding to political parties
26 Remove anti-dumping laws
27 Eliminate media ownership restrictions
28 Abolish the Foreign Investment Review Board
29 Eliminate the National Preventative Health Agency
30 Cease subsidising the car industry
31 Formalise a one-in, one-out approach to regulatory reduction
32 Rule out federal funding for 2018 Commonwealth Games
33 Deregulate the parallel importation of books
34 End preferences for Industry Super Funds in workplace relations laws
35 Legislate a cap on government spending and tax as a percentage of GDP
36 Legislate a balanced budget amendment which strictly limits the size of budget deficits and the period the federal government can be in deficit
37 Force government agencies to put all of their spending online in a searchable database
38 Repeal plain packaging for cigarettes and rule it out for all other products, including alcohol and fast food
39 Reintroduce voluntary student unionism at universities
40 Introduce a voucher scheme for secondary schools
41 Repeal the alcopops tax
42 Introduce a special economic zone in the north of Australia including:
    a) Lower personal income tax for residents
    b) Significantly expanded 457 Visa programs for workers
    c) Encourage the construction of dams
43 Repeal the mining tax
44 Devolve environmental approvals for major projects to the states
45 Introduce a single rate of income tax with a generous tax-free threshold
46 Cut company tax to an internationally competitive rate of 25 per cent
47 Cease funding the Australia Network
48 Privatise Australia Post
49 Privatise Medibank
50 Break up the ABC and put out to tender each individual function


Anyone who lobbies a government in order to get the government to ban something is in my view an undesirable person. And I mean anyone. - Kris Sayce

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#21 2013-10-12 21:24:41

bordsilver
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

51 Privatise SBS
52 Reduce the size of the public service from current levels of more than 260,000 to at least the 2001 low of 212,784
53 Repeal the Fair Work Act
54 Allow individuals and employers to negotiate directly terms of employment that suit them
55 Encourage independent contracting by overturning new regulations designed to punish contractors
56 Abolish the Baby Bonus
57 Abolish the First Home Owners' Grant
58 Allow the Northern Territory to become a state
59 Halve the size of the Coalition front bench from 32 to 16
60 Remove all remaining tariff and non-tariff barriers to international trade
61 Slash top public servant salaries to much lower international standards, like in the United States
62 End all public subsidies to sport and the arts
63 Privatise the Australian Institute of Sport
64 End all hidden protectionist measures, such as preferences for local manufacturers in government tendering
65 Abolish the Office for Film and Literature Classification
66 Rule out any government-supported or mandated internet censorship
67 Means test tertiary student loans
68 Allow people to opt out of superannuation in exchange for promising to forgo any government income support in retirement
69 Immediately halt construction of the National Broadband Network and privatise any sections that have already been built
70 End all government funded Nanny State advertising
71 Reject proposals for compulsory food and alcohol labelling
72 Privatise the CSIRO
73 Defund Harmony Day
74 Close the Office for Youth
75 Privatise the Snowy-Hydro Scheme
76 Have State Premiers appoint High Court justices
77 Allow ministers to be appointed from outside parliament
78 Extend the GST to cover all goods and services but return all extra revenue to taxpayers through cutting other taxes
79 Abolish the federal department of health and return health policy to the states
80 Abolish the federal department of education and return education policy to the states
81 Repeal any new mandatory data retention laws
82 Abolish the Australian Human Rights Commission
83 Have trade unions regulated like public companies, with ASIC responsible for their oversight
84 End all public funding to unions and employer associations
85 Repeal laws which protect unions from competition, such as the 'conveniently belong' rules in the Fair Work Act
86 Extend unrestricted work visas currently granted to New Zealand citizens to citizens of the United States
87 Negotiate and sign free trade agreements with Australia's largest trading partners, including China, India, Japan and South Korea
88 Restore fundamental legal rights to all existing commonwealth legislation such as the right to silence and the presumption of innocence
89 Adhere to section 51(xxxi) of the Constitution by not taking or diminishing anyone's property without proper compensation
90 Repeal legislative restrictions on the use of nuclear power
91 Allow full competition on all foreign air routes
92 Abolish the Medicare levy surcharge
93 Abolish the luxury car tax
94 Halve the number of days parliament sits to reduce the amount of legislation passed
95 Abolish Tourism Australia and cease subsidising the tourism industry
96 Make all government payments to external parties publicly available including the terms and conditions of those payments
97 Abandon plans to restrict foreign investment in Australia's agricultural industry
98 Cease the practice of setting up government-funded lobby groups, such as YouMeUnity, which uses taxpayer funds to campaign to change the Australian Constitution
99 Rule out the introduction of mandatory pre-commitment for electronic gaming machines
100 Abolish the four pillars policy which prevents Australia's major banks from merging
101 Abolish the RBA


Anyone who lobbies a government in order to get the government to ban something is in my view an undesirable person. And I mean anyone. - Kris Sayce

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#22 2013-10-12 21:25:40

House
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

Credit Crunch wrote:

Yeah like everyone I dont like paying tax.  But I feel I pay tax through every bodily orifice and these multinational conglomerates essentially dont pay any tax which just shifts the burden onto the likes of me (and I bet most of you), the working stiff.

Governments are always needing the $XXX for hospitals, schools, the army, courts etc etc so the long and the short of it, if the likes of Google dont pay, then its me the poor 9-5 worker who does.  And frankly, I'd rather google, ebay & Co pay their share.

If its "good on em" for skirting the tax law, then, the tax law needs to be changed so they cough up their share and take some of the burden of the private average wage citizen!

-endith the rant-

So one day, when governments all over the world agree to co-operate and tax these multi-nationals 'fairly' and in line with personal tax rates, do you actually think they'll drop the personal tax rates? Or continue buying utterly stupid sh1t, giving themselves delightful payrises and persist in wasting taxpayers hard earned cash?


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#23 2013-10-12 21:37:37

Credit Crunch
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Credit Crunch wrote:

And those who say $387 Billion is too much revenue raised by the Government, thats fine.  Please list what cuts you'd make for say $100 Billion less in taxes to be offset.   The "war on waste" and "pollies perks" should account for about $1 Billion, lets see what services the remaining $99 Billion will be cut from.

What would be cut first? Defense? Education? Aged Pension? Health Care? Customs ? Perhaps roads?  List away!

Yes!!!!!! I'm so glad you asked!!!!!!

1. The ATO
2. Health: privatise hospitals
3. Education: privatise schools
4. Roads: privatise roads, sell the traffic lights and bridges
5. Defence: private contractors
6. Police: private contractors
7. Public service

The list could go on.

Uh huh.  A world where if you have money you're fine but if you dont its a world of poverty and despair for you.  Worked well in England during the industrial revolution - not.   Worked well in the US at the turn of the century when JP Morgan, Rockefeller, Carnegie and others controlled hundreds of thousands of people with their wealth - not.

What you propose would result in 21st century serfdom.  Perhaps the wealthy could have their own castles just like in the 12th Century and the rest of us live to make their lives even more spectacular.

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#24 2013-10-12 21:38:12

SilverSaviour
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

I would start by removing the monopoly that government services enjoy(no tax dollars saved yet).
The heavy restrictions of private alternatives in certain services also need to be removed.
This would see private alternatives start that would compete with government services DESPITE them often being free (to the user).
THEN once the scene is set, you could start reducing govt funding in education and healthcare (and the other easy ones first), as this occurs private alternatives would flourish, benefiting consumers greatly.
Leave Defense alone as is, as long is the funding is for DEFENCE and NOT intervention in other countries that have never even attempted to attack us.

I would leave pensions as they are but prevent new ones. And also cut public servants pensions back to levels "enjoyed" be everyone else.

That would be a fantastic start !!


Despots and democratic majorities are drunk with power. They must reluctantly admit that they are subject to the laws of nature. But they reject the very notion of economic law . . . economic history is a long record of government policies that failed because they were designed with a bold disregard for the laws of economics.

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#25 2013-10-12 21:48:10

worldbubble
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Re: How much tax do you pay? Google pays 5%

haha
people are taxed more than corps do
why people's income is not treated like if it were corporations's income?
why when I pay rent  it is not deductible?
why when I pay for my car it is not deductible?
damn, why when I buy food  it is not deductible?
All of these and more are operations costs ))

so do we have to start living as corporations instead of living as a households?


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