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#1501 2013-04-19 17:03:24

mmm....shiney!
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From: 昆士蘭
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

I'm going ok, hanging in there understanding most of the conversation, and then!!!! Wham!!!!!!!!!!

Has anyone managed to get their Mt.Gox account "Trusted" (i.e. sending notarized and apostilled documents). Wondering how long this takes? I sent mine on Monday (express 1 day postage).

Followed by:

"validated", "verified", "Yubi keys", "lost Yubi keys" and then "Technocash"?????????????????????

And this system is supposed to be more Libertarian and will be accessible to all and eventually willingly adopted by the whole world?

Of course. (insert sarcasm smiley) (insert member of older generation flag).

I wonder where that goat-herder Jamal's nearest Notary Public is in Gobustan, Azerbaijan? Shouldn't be too hard for him to find one, just use his iPhone and type in www.azerbaijanlookup.com I suppose. Then all he has to do is take his birth certificate, driver's license and utility bill in to prove who he is.  cool

Topic reminder: Bitcoin...Why it is totally flawed.


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#1502 2013-04-19 17:10:57

willrocks
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

mmm....shiney! wrote:

I'm going ok, hanging in there understanding most of the conversation, and then!!!! Wham!!!!!!!!!!

Has anyone managed to get their Mt.Gox account "Trusted" (i.e. sending notarized and apostilled documents). Wondering how long this takes? I sent mine on Monday (express 1 day postage).

Followed by:

"validated", "verified", "Yubi keys", "lost Yubi keys" and then "Technocash"?????????????????????

And this system is supposed to be more Libertarian and will be accessible to all and eventually willingly adopted by the whole world?

Of course. (insert sarcasm smiley) (insert member of older generation flag).

I wonder where that goat-herder Jamal's nearest Notary Public is in Gobustan, Azerbaijan? Shouldn't be too hard for him to find one, just use his iPhone and type in www.azerbaijanlookup.com I suppose. Then all he has to do is take his birth certificate, driver's license and utility bill in to prove who he is.  cool

Topic reminder: Bitcoin...Why it is totally flawed.

If you've read this thread, in it's entirety, and still don't understand the core concepts of bitcoin (i.e. you hold the coins, virtually anonymous transactions, no gov or bank can take bitcoins ...) then there's little point anyone explaining it to you now.

Yes the exchanges have security measures in place. As do most PM owners when storing their stack.

With your PMs you can store your stack in a bank, in private vaults, or at home. Same concept with bitcoin.


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#1503 2013-04-19 17:14:38

mmm....shiney!
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From: 昆士蘭
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

Except willrocks, you guys are going to extraordinary trouble to deal in something that should be as easy as handing over a $20 note - and it's obviously not.

Flawed.


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#1504 2013-04-19 17:30:56

mmm....shiney!
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

willrocks wrote:

(i.e. you hold the coins, virtually anonymous transactions, no gov or bank can take bitcoins ...) then there's little point anyone explaining it to you now.

And they are virtually anonymous now?

Hang on, I thought they were anonymous?????? How can you have degrees of anonymity. You're either anonymous or you're not??? Strange. Maybe technological anonymity is like an old corrugated iron rainwater tank (which you used to be able to buy with paper notes), after a while it rusts and leaks and you end up losing your water.

Conversation with self:

shiney!1: Hey dickhead, would you rather have virtual anonymity or real anonymity?
shiney!2: What do you mean? Just like virtual sex and real sex?

lol


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#1505 2013-04-19 17:43:05

willrocks
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

mmm....shiney! wrote:
willrocks wrote:

(i.e. you hold the coins, virtually anonymous transactions, no gov or bank can take bitcoins ...) then there's little point anyone explaining it to you now.

And they are virtually anonymous now?

Hang on, I thought they were anonymous?????? How can you have degrees of anonymity. You're either anonymous or you're not??? Strange. Maybe technological anonymity is like an old corrugated iron rainwater tank (which you used to be able to buy with paper notes), after a while it rusts and leaks and you end up losing your water.

Conversation with self:

shiney!1: Hey dickhead, would you rather have virtual anonymity or real anonymity?
shiney!2: What do you mean? Just like virtual sex and real sex?

lol

Well it's like pissing in a urinal. Technically there's a small chance that urine could be tracked back to you. But it's probably virtually impossible.

Also your cash notes have serial numbers. So technically they may be tracked back to you with about the same degree of probability as tracking a bitcoin transaction.

Last edited by willrocks (2013-04-19 17:53:48)


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#1506 2013-04-19 17:44:20

willrocks
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

mmm....shiney! wrote:

Except willrocks, you guys are going to extraordinary trouble to deal in something that should be as easy as handing over a $20 note - and it's obviously not.

Flawed.

Bitcoin to bitcoin transactions are actually easier than handing over a $20 note.


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#1507 2013-04-19 17:45:00

pro$pector
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From: Perth, WA
Registered: 2012-03-14
Posts: 741

Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

I don't know why this shiney fellow even gets out of bed in the morning!

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#1508 2013-04-19 18:06:53

RetardedMonkey
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From: Brisbane, Australia
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

Prospector, can you tell me when to get out of BTC this time? I want to sell at top and buy back in tongue

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#1509 2013-04-19 18:13:26

mmm....shiney!
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From: 昆士蘭
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Posts: 10,045
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

willrocks wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:

Except willrocks, you guys are going to extraordinary trouble to deal in something that should be as easy as handing over a $20 note - and it's obviously not.

Flawed.

Bitcoin to bitcoin transactions are actually easier than handing over a $20 note.

Actually it's not, because I don't need any technology to complete the transaction, but I understand your point there, especially if you are not face-face.


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#1510 2013-04-19 18:14:17

mmm....shiney!
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

pro$pector wrote:

I don't know why this shiney fellow even gets out of bed in the morning!

Because the staff in my Nursing home make me. Goddamm bitches!!!!!


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#1511 2013-04-19 18:16:29

mmm....shiney!
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From: 昆士蘭
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

willrocks wrote:

Well it's like pissing in a urinal. Technically there's a small chance that urine could be tracked back to you. But it's probably virtually impossible.

Also your cash notes have serial numbers. So technically they may be tracked back to you with about the same degree of probability as tracking a bitcoin transaction.

So it's not guaranteed anonymous, thank you. And by "virtually" I assume you mean capable with today's current technology?

By the way, how can bank notes be traced back if there is no register of ownership to begin with?


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#1512 2013-04-19 18:16:48

RetardedMonkey
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

mmm....shiney! wrote:

Except willrocks, you guys are going to extraordinary trouble to deal in something that should be as easy as handing over a $20 note - and it's obviously not.

Not sure if you're trolling (you probably are haha), but I'll bite anyway.

Handing over a $20 is easy (you give it to me)
Handing over 20 BTC is easy (I enter a wallet address)

Think of this more like a bank account, you need ID to open an account, you need to enter codes to retrieve money from the ATMs provided by banks.
Same concept with BTC - except it's all done online.

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#1513 2013-04-19 18:24:16

willrocks
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

mmm....shiney! wrote:
willrocks wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:

Except willrocks, you guys are going to extraordinary trouble to deal in something that should be as easy as handing over a $20 note - and it's obviously not.

Flawed.

Bitcoin to bitcoin transactions are actually easier than handing over a $20 note.

Actually it's not, because I don't need any technology to complete the transaction, but I understand your point there, especially if you are not face-face.

But you do. You rely on printing presses, vehicles to ship and distribute the cash, banks, government ... the list goes on. Unless you're peeling paperbark off and writing $20 with a charcoal stick, you are relying on technology. And if you need to meet face to face to hand over the $20, you also rely on transportation, roads, ...


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#1514 2013-04-19 18:25:54

mmm....shiney!
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

RetardedMonkey wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:

Except willrocks, you guys are going to extraordinary trouble to deal in something that should be as easy as handing over a $20 note - and it's obviously not.

Not sure if you're trolling (you probably are haha), but I'll bite anyway.

Handing over a $20 is easy (you give it to me)
Handing over 20 BTC is easy (I enter a wallet address)

Think of this more like a bank account, you need ID to open an account, you need to enter codes to retrieve money from the ATMs provided by banks.
Same concept with BTC - except it's all done online.

See the problem with you young people Monkeyboy is, you all, and I mean all of you, immediately label any online criticism as trolling. We older people are not so quick to tar everyone and everything with the same brush. We never make gross generalisations. Ever. wink

On a more serious note, explaining Bitcoins' reliance on technology by comparing it to the very fragile system we currently operate under eg ATM's is not going to convince me. So my point? Unless you can convince people Bitcoins is a move forward, then the only way it can be introduced as a general form of currency is by coercion. Which is naughty.

Of course, if there were alternatives and Bitcoins were one of them, and cold hard cash were another, then that would be a good move.

smile


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#1515 2013-04-19 18:26:14

willrocks
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

mmm....shiney! wrote:

By the way, how can bank notes be traced back if there is no register of ownership to begin with?

Bingo! Same with bitcoin addresses.

But seriously, they have traced bank notes by numbers in the past. e.g. bank robberies.

Last edited by willrocks (2013-04-19 18:26:28)


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#1516 2013-04-19 18:32:24

mmm....shiney!
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

willrocks wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:
willrocks wrote:

Bitcoin to bitcoin transactions are actually easier than handing over a $20 note.

Actually it's not, because I don't need any technology to complete the transaction, but I understand your point there, especially if you are not face-face.

But you do. You rely on printing presses, vehicles to ship and distribute the cash, banks, government ... the list goes on. Unless you're peeling paperbark off and writing $20 with a charcoal stick, you are relying on technology. And if you need to meet face to face to hand over the $20, you also rely on transportation, roads, ...

I would hazard a guess that the complexities of those technologies you listed vary greatly. The more complex a technology is, the more parts make the whole, and therefore the more reliance there is upon all those parts working faultlessly.


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#1517 2013-04-19 18:34:28

mmm....shiney!
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

willrocks wrote:
mmm....shiney! wrote:

By the way, how can bank notes be traced back if there is no register of ownership to begin with?

Bingo! Same with bitcoin addresses.

But seriously, they have traced bank notes by numbers in the past. e.g. bank robberies.

but you said virtually anonymous before, I was just picking up on that.  smile

And yes bank robberies have been traced with serial numbers, but they can't do it if the note is general circulation and you buy a crumbed steak.  cool


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#1518 2013-04-19 18:35:54

mmm....shiney!
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

Gotta to go to work and annoy young people.


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#1519 2013-04-19 18:42:59

willrocks
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

mmm....shiney! wrote:

Gotta to go to work and annoy young people.

What ... your manager?


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#1520 2013-04-19 19:02:20

bordsilver
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

bordsilver wrote:

Apologies in advance if I'm repeating previous discussions (the Bitcoin threads are getting quite large), but I've seen numerous references to one of the attractions of Bitcoin being its "anonymity".

The closest to a real discussion on here that I've found was Bullion Baron's questions way back on Page 18. I stumbled across  this interview with Bitcoin Watch founder Jeff Garzin that discusses the issue including getting the US Govt etc on board.

Key part starts at about 2:45.

Also this article An Analysis of Anonymity in the Bitcoin System
Any response from the experts?

Last edited by bordsilver (2013-04-19 19:03:43)


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#1521 2013-04-19 19:10:23

hawkeye
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

All bitcoins are assigned to a public key only, no other infromation is in the blockchain.  The person who has the private key for the public key is the one who has access to those bitcoins.

If there is any kind of public connection between you and a public key then the transactions for that public key are NOT anonymous.  If there isn't then it is anonymous.

So, it all depends.  For most people it won't be.  But if you really want it to be anonymous then I'm sure you can do so, you just have to be careful in who you do transactions with.

Last edited by hawkeye (2013-04-19 19:11:07)


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#1522 2013-04-19 19:14:10

bordsilver
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

hawkeye wrote:

All bitcoins are assigned to a public key only, no other infromation is in the blockchain.  The person who has the private key for the public key is the one who has access to those bitcoins.

If there is any kind of public connection between you and a public key then the transactions for that public key are NOT anonymous.  If there isn't then it is anonymous.

So, it all depends.  For most people it won't be.  But if you really want it to be anonymous then I'm sure you can do so, you just have to be careful in who you do transactions with.

So you're saying that Bitcoins are inherently open/public and that, just like any internet activity, you need to actively take steps to deliberately make the transaction anonymous (through TOR or something - whatever that is)?


Anyone who lobbies a government in order to get the government to ban something is in my view an undesirable person. And I mean anyone. - Kris Sayce

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#1523 2013-04-19 19:17:10

hawkeye
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

bordsilver wrote:

So you're saying that Bitcoins are inherently open/public and that, just like any internet activity, you need to actively take steps to deliberately make the transaction anonymous (through TOR or something - whatever that is)?

I would say it has the facility for anonymity.  That doesn't mean that all accounts are anonymous.


If you defend something as being a "necessary evil", be sure that it is necessary.   Otherwise you are just defending evil.

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#1524 2013-04-19 19:29:58

hawkeye
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

I've actually been thinking about this in terms of my account and just how anonymous it is.  I think once you do a transfer into a fiat currency bank account you've now created a connection between yourself and that bitcoin public key.

If you are buying stuff on the internet, it all depends what the person's reporting requirements are.  Do govt's regard swapping  bitcoins for other goods as a taxable event?   Seems like effectively barter to me atm but I really have no idea what silly rules govt has made in this regard.


If you defend something as being a "necessary evil", be sure that it is necessary.   Otherwise you are just defending evil.

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#1525 2013-04-19 19:35:59

RetardedMonkey
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Re: BITCON... WHY its totally FLAWED

Use a different address for every transaction.

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