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  • » Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

#1 2012-05-11 00:52:24

Roswell Crash Survivor
Silver Stacker
From: Zeta Reticuli
Registered: 2011-04-11
Posts: 1,952
Trades :   32 

Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Do you consider it likely the Australian government will attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super to fund their budget?

Especially if revenue from Resource Extraction activities drop precipitously as foreign demand fades? Current tax revenue models do not seem to account for the possibility.

If its not an outright seizure, or some type of coercive/punitive measure like a 80% tax on incomes to force a 'voluntary' conversion into a 'government-backed' pension scheme while the proceeds of the scheme go into general revenue.

If so, when do you expect this to occur? What will be the warning signs?

If you have another POV, feel free to share it with us below.

European Nations Begin Seizing Private Pensions
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/The-A … e-pensions

Hungary Forces Private Pension Fund Members Back To State Scheme
http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/201 … te-scheme/

(I'm deliberately choosing sources only from mass-distribution media. Let no-one accuse me of being gullible, hysterical and whipped into a frenzy by a mere errant blogger!)


The Roswell Crash Survivor

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#2 2012-05-11 01:03:17

Graeme
Silver Stacker
From: In front of PC
Registered: 2011-01-27
Posts: 741
Trades :   41 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Roswell Crash Survivor wrote:

Do you consider it likely the Australian government will attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super to fund their budget?

No, but I do expect them to implement other means of increasing revenue to cater for budget spending ... as always. big_smile

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#3 2012-05-11 01:03:24

Shaddam IV
Silver Stacker
From: House Corrino
Registered: 2010-03-22
Posts: 6,277

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Gillard has already publicly stated last year that she wants to release funds from the Australian super pool to allow it to be used by banks instead of it "just sitting" around.

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#4 2012-05-11 02:14:06

markcoinoz
Silver Stacker
From: Melbourne
Registered: 2012-04-29
Posts: 685
Trades :   37 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Roswell Crash Survivor wrote:

Do you consider it likely the Australian government will attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super to fund their budget?

Especially if revenue from Resource Extraction activities drop precipitously as foreign demand fades? Current tax revenue models do not seem to account for the possibility.

If its not an outright seizure, or some type of coercive/punitive measure like a 80% tax on incomes to force a 'voluntary' conversion into a 'government-backed' pension scheme while the proceeds of the scheme go into general revenue.

If so, when do you expect this to occur? What will be the warning signs?

If you have another POV, feel free to share it with us below.

European Nations Begin Seizing Private Pensions
http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/The-A … e-pensions

Hungary Forces Private Pension Fund Members Back To State Scheme
http://blogs.wsj.com/emergingeurope/201 … te-scheme/

(I'm deliberately choosing sources only from mass-distribution media. Let no-one accuse me of being gullible, hysterical and whipped into a frenzy by a mere errant blogger!)


Thats a real worry if SHTF which could very well happen.
Am doing some divesting atm with my smsf out of the sharemarket into physical
Gold and Silver.  Stored at my place of course in case of a quick get away.

Cheers markcoinoz



http://www.australiandebtclock.com.au/

Last edited by markcoinoz (2012-05-11 02:15:00)


Cheers Markcoinoz

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#5 2012-05-11 02:36:01

Old Codger
Silver Stacker
Registered: 2011-05-13
Posts: 5,128

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

.

Last edited by Old Codger (2012-05-11 02:36:26)


"The Australian Labor Party is a democratic socialist party and has the objective of the democratic socialisation of industry, production, distribution and exchange, to the extent necessary to eliminate exploitation and other anti-social features in these fields."   -  ALP Constitution.

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#6 2012-05-11 06:09:28

boston
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2009-07-06
Posts: 3,995

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Roswell Crash Survivor wrote:

Do you consider it likely the Australian government will attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super to fund their budget?

In one form or another - yes.


Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright, until you hear them speak...

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#7 2012-05-12 07:37:32

jparrie
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2011-04-12
Posts: 812

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Roswell Crash Survivor wrote:

Do you consider it likely the Australian government will attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super to fund their budget?

Did you not see the budget? They are already expropriating funds from Super to fund their budget, via an additional 15% tax for those earning over $300k. Or is that not included because they are so "rich" (and don't need the money)?

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#8 2012-05-12 11:21:11

Lovey80
Member
From: Sunshine Coast, QLD
Registered: 2011-05-08
Posts: 2,464
Trades :   29 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

They have already stollen all of the super from Temporary workers, what makes anyone think that ours isn't next?

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#9 2012-05-12 20:52:02

Big A.D.
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From: Sydney
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 6,437
Trades :   52 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

jparrie wrote:

They are already expropriating funds from Super to fund their budget, via an additional 15% tax for those earning over $300k. Or is that not included because they are so "rich" (and don't need the money)?

It's not an "additional tax", it's a "reduced discount".

If you're earning $300k/year, you're now paying 30% on concessional contributions for the portion of your income that is over $300k instead of 15%.

Given that your normal tax rate is 45% on income over $180k/year, you're still saving 15 percentage points on income over $300k/year, which is the equivalent of getting 33% discount on your tax bill if you put money into super instead of taking it as regular income. You lose the 66.6% discount for the portion that's over $300K (an of course you still get that rate for contributions from income under $300k), but you "only" get a 33.3% discount on contributions from the portion that's over $300k.


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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#10 2012-05-12 21:09:11

wrcmad
Silver Stacker
From: Northern NSW
Registered: 2012-01-02
Posts: 6,105
Trades :   118 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Big A.D. wrote:

It's not an "additional tax", it's a "reduced discount".

Mate, it doesn't matter which way you like to present this argument, there is no excuse for introducing disincentives to personally fund your own retirement.

You will have to do a lot better than that to make this current government appear to possess anything other than the highest degree of incompetence possible.


Anything is possible, but not everything is probable.  wink

Manipulation..... If you want to continually subscribe to this idea then get out of precious metals. Only a fool would play a game that is completely rigged. As you still are in the game, I would say that you are not completely convinced of the manipulation ...

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#11 2012-05-12 21:32:15

Big A.D.
Silver Stacker
From: Sydney
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 6,437
Trades :   52 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

wrcmad wrote:
Big A.D. wrote:

It's not an "additional tax", it's a "reduced discount".

Mate, it doesn't matter which way you like to present this argument, there is no excuse for introducing disincentives to personally fund your own retirement.

Well, that's the question: is taking a generous discount and reducing it to a less generous, but still quite substantial discount actually a disincentive or is it merely a reduced incentive? That is, is anyone on $300k/year going to say "Bugger superannuation, I'm going to spend that money on a Ferarri instead and go on the aged pension when I get old"?

Probably not.

You will have to do a lot better than that to make this current government appear to possess anything other than the highest degree of incompetence possible.

Oh, but I do think the government is incompetent. The "highest degree of incompetence possible" is a characterisation I'd probably save for the current opposition (given their budgetary "black hole" contains more than $70 billion worth of spending they don't know how they're going to pay for), but this government certainly isn't going to win any awards for brilliance.

For me personally, the fact that both sides keep mucking around with superannuation is actually the biggest disincentive for putting money into the scheme.


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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#12 2012-05-12 22:09:51

wrcmad
Silver Stacker
From: Northern NSW
Registered: 2012-01-02
Posts: 6,105
Trades :   118 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Big A.D. wrote:

Well, that's the question: is taking a generous discount and reducing it to a less generous, but still quite substantial discount actually a disincentive or is it merely a reduced incentive?

You can split hairs if you want to, doesn't change the fact that it is still inexcusable.

Big A.D. wrote:

That is, is anyone on $300k/year going to say "Bugger superannuation, I'm going to spend that money on a Ferarri instead and go on the aged pension when I get old"?

Probably not.

Makes no difference what the income rate is. Begrudging and penalising someone because they reap the rewards of their effort is typical ALP socialism. It serves nothing but to make the envious and resentful feel better about, and justify, their lack of the same success.

Australia, the land of opportunity.... but not too big an opportunity, or we will demonise you.


Anything is possible, but not everything is probable.  wink

Manipulation..... If you want to continually subscribe to this idea then get out of precious metals. Only a fool would play a game that is completely rigged. As you still are in the game, I would say that you are not completely convinced of the manipulation ...

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#13 2012-05-13 00:43:14

nonrecourse
Member
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 2011-07-11
Posts: 1,628
Trades :   

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Big A.D. wrote:

Oh, but I do think the government is incompetent. The "highest degree of incompetence possible" is a characterisation I'd probably save for the current opposition (given their budgetary "black hole" contains more than $70 billion worth of spending they don't know how they're going to pay for), but this government certainly isn't going to win any awards for brilliance.

The Lib/Nat' s will pay for it the same way they did for the 96 Billion black hole that the Keating mob left.....increased taxes and less welfare though that will be a bit more difficult with an extra ten thousand illegal boat people on the public teat.


Big A.D. wrote:

For me personally, the fact that both sides keep mucking around with superannuation is actually the biggest disincentive for putting money into the scheme.

Agreed it is only a matter of time before you will be forced to take your super as a pension and of course the banks and the insurance industry will bribe both sides of government to ensure that you are requirred to have part of that money in an annuity.

Kind Regards
non recourse

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#14 2012-05-13 01:51:40

jpanggy
Member
From: Melbourne
Registered: 2011-06-22
Posts: 1,748
Trades :   148 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

If we show symptoms of turning Japanese (uber long deflation), then government will likely:
increase age of pension, reduce govt contribution, tax the younger workforce more, eliminate lump sum payment, revamp medicare (reduce cost), maybe tax the elderly for existing. Etc etc.

But Australian population is small, so a simple immigration drive can "reduce" the average age. It depends on how much water we can provide though (desal should solve this issue).


Please pm me if I have forgotten to leave trade feedback.
Please pm me if your package have not arrived.

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#15 2012-05-13 04:27:40

Big A.D.
Silver Stacker
From: Sydney
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 6,437
Trades :   52 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

wrcmad wrote:
Big A.D. wrote:

Well, that's the question: is taking a generous discount and reducing it to a less generous, but still quite substantial discount actually a disincentive or is it merely a reduced incentive?

You can split hairs if you want to, doesn't change the fact that it is still inexcusable.

Big A.D. wrote:

That is, is anyone on $300k/year going to say "Bugger superannuation, I'm going to spend that money on a Ferarri instead and go on the aged pension when I get old"?

Probably not.

Makes no difference what the income rate is. Begrudging and penalising someone because they reap the rewards of their effort is typical ALP socialism. It serves nothing but to make the envious and resentful feel better about, and justify, their lack of the same success.

Australia, the land of opportunity.... but not too big an opportunity, or we will demonise you.

Getting any tax discount on money going into super is a pretty damn good deal in the first place.

The whole purpose of concessional tax rates is to encourage people to put money into super. If people are doing that anyway without encouragement then the concession is unnecessary.

People earning $300k/year need less encouragement to put money into super than people earning $75k/year do, so people earning $300k/year get less concessions.



What if we got rid of "typical ALP socialism" and scrapped concessional tax for super contributions and dumped the old aged pension as well? You know, so people can reap the rewards of their effort without being penalised. Oh yeah, we'd be back in the 1820s with slums and disease and open sewers and people nicking stuff off each other in order to survive.


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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#16 2012-05-13 05:36:36

Lovey80
Member
From: Sunshine Coast, QLD
Registered: 2011-05-08
Posts: 2,464
Trades :   29 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Calling it a tax discount in the first place is such a cop out. Since WW2, the public was conned with promises of pension schemes and all the rest for allowing gov't to rape them of their hard earned money. Without these promises the amou nts of tax raped off of the public we pay now would have caused a violent overthrow of government. Then Keating came along and forced people to start putting money away for retirement (all the while being a complete hypocrit by not funding up front the same super contributions for public workers). But these people that are taking themselves off the burden of government by paying for their OWN retirement are also paying for the retirement of the generations that don't have super. They are getting stung twice all for the priveledge of ONLY having 15% of their retirement money taxed. Until now that is.

You have to be kidding mate. So much for a fair go in this country when people like you are continuously supporting the attacks on people that have made a go of themselves in life.

Last edited by Lovey80 (2012-05-13 05:39:49)

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#17 2012-05-13 05:40:34

nonrecourse
Member
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 2011-07-11
Posts: 1,628
Trades :   

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Big A.D. wrote:

What if we got rid of "typical ALP socialism" and scrapped concessional tax for super contributions and dumped the old aged pension as well? You know, so people can reap the rewards of their effort without being penalised. Oh yeah, we'd be back in the 1820s with slums and disease and open sewers and people nicking stuff off each other in order to survive.

Rubbish governments are the worst money managers going that is why they fight so hard to prevent a return to the gold standard. They want to play games by manipulating the money supply and keep us dependent on them; a pox to your social welfare.

You never feed a poor man by screwing the rich

Kind Regards
non recourse

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#18 2012-05-13 07:43:05

wrcmad
Silver Stacker
From: Northern NSW
Registered: 2012-01-02
Posts: 6,105
Trades :   118 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Big A.D wrote:

What if we got rid of "typical ALP socialism" and scrapped concessional tax for super contributions and dumped the old aged pension as well? .

Bring it on bud. That's the first sensible thing you have written.

Me and my Mrs together would be $10K a year better off according to this:   http://www.news.com.au/money/federal-bu … 6351467594

An analysis of the Federal Budget by the Tax Institute reveals that about 35c in every dollar collected by the taxman from the average worker pays for the welfare of others...

And guess what, we don't get any Family A or other handouts for our 3 kids at school - apparently Swan reckons we're loaded since she earns $35K per year!


Anything is possible, but not everything is probable.  wink

Manipulation..... If you want to continually subscribe to this idea then get out of precious metals. Only a fool would play a game that is completely rigged. As you still are in the game, I would say that you are not completely convinced of the manipulation ...

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#19 2012-05-13 08:18:54

JulieW
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2010-10-14
Posts: 11,102

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

nonrecourse wrote:
Big A.D. wrote:

What if we got rid of "typical ALP socialism" and scrapped concessional tax for super contributions and dumped the old aged pension as well? You know, so people can reap the rewards of their effort without being penalised. Oh yeah, we'd be back in the 1820s with slums and disease and open sewers and people nicking stuff off each other in order to survive.

Rubbish governments are the worst money managers going that is why they fight so hard to prevent a return to the gold standard. They want to play games by manipulating the money supply and keep us dependent on them; a pox to your social welfare.

You never feed a poor man by screwing the rich

Kind Regards
non recourse

But you always screw a poor man by feeding the rich.

The Protestant work ethic - for want of a better description - encourages one to become prosperous and share the wealth amongst one's fellows. It accompanies 'a fair day's work for a fair day's pay'.

I object to government interference and the abrogation of our responsibilities, by that interference, to the well-being of our neighbours. The guy who whipped the money-changers out of the temple also said there will always be poor people and it is up to us to share our bounty with them. Not be ordered to by a deceitful and lying government bureaucracy who cares for the poor not by need, but by political lobby.

I'd rather pay a person to mow my lawns than have the government take that $30 from me and give it to someone without obligation.

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#20 2012-05-13 08:33:29

Big A.D.
Silver Stacker
From: Sydney
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 6,437
Trades :   52 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

wrcmad wrote:
Big A.D wrote:

What if we got rid of "typical ALP socialism" and scrapped concessional tax for super contributions and dumped the old aged pension as well? .

Bring it on bud. That's the first sensible thing you have written.

Well, I guess welcome to the 19th century then.

Mind the typhoid.


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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#21 2012-05-13 08:36:28

ShinyStuff
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2011-04-29
Posts: 608
Trades :   

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Big A.D. wrote:
wrcmad wrote:
Big A.D wrote:

What if we got rid of "typical ALP socialism" and scrapped concessional tax for super contributions and dumped the old aged pension as well? .

Bring it on bud. That's the first sensible thing you have written.

Well, I guess welcome to the 19th century then.

Mind the typhoid.

But it will mean that neighbours look out for one another, living in one home with an extended family, simple pleasures and less of a hectic pace.

I for one will give it a go.... just make sure I wash my hands a lot and eat some dirt everyday (with my organic carrots I grow) to keep up my immunity!

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#22 2012-05-13 08:52:17

wrcmad
Silver Stacker
From: Northern NSW
Registered: 2012-01-02
Posts: 6,105
Trades :   118 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Big A.D. wrote:

Mind the typhoid.

No worries there. I already pay my own way on that front too - private health insurance. wink


Anything is possible, but not everything is probable.  wink

Manipulation..... If you want to continually subscribe to this idea then get out of precious metals. Only a fool would play a game that is completely rigged. As you still are in the game, I would say that you are not completely convinced of the manipulation ...

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#23 2012-05-13 08:58:29

Big A.D.
Silver Stacker
From: Sydney
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 6,437
Trades :   52 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

wrcmad wrote:
Big A.D. wrote:

Mind the typhoid.

No worries there. I already pay my own way on that front too - private health insurance. wink

You don't happen to receive a rebate from the government for a portion of that, do you?


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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#24 2012-05-13 09:03:56

errol43
Silver Stacker
From: Bundaberg
Registered: 2010-04-13
Posts: 6,325
Trades :   

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Ah! Remember the old parliamentary super scheme...Stay in for only 9years and get a pension for life. Along comes Latham and low and behold an election coming up so they changed it to any politician getting elected wouldbe on the same scheme as the average Australian worker paying 9% of their salary.

That didn't last long..The percentage paid in now into the politicians  super by the taxpayer is at least double.

Lets have a level playing field for all Australians paying super.

One change that should be made immediately is that all casual workers who contribute only a token amount in their early years of employment should not be  charged management fees until their overall  super contributions reach a total of $10k.  I know of young workers who have paid less than $2K in super loosing the lot in yearly fees. What a great way to encourage low paid workers to believe in super.

Regards Errol 43

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#25 2012-05-13 09:04:21

Big A.D.
Silver Stacker
From: Sydney
Registered: 2009-10-29
Posts: 6,437
Trades :   52 

Re: Will the Aus. gov. attempt to 'expropriate' funds from private Super?

Out of interest, is there anyone here from the 0.4% of the population that will be getting less of a tax discount on their super contributions?

Or is it just the 1% Fan Club speaking? (And that's fine if it is. Marius Kloppers, Gail Kelly and Mike Smith really need your support on this one!)


I am the Leafy Sea Dragon.

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