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#26 2011-11-13 10:23:58

yennus
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From: Shanghai:Sydney
Registered: 2010-10-24
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Javacoffee wrote:

I bought some Silver Pandas year 2000 - double seal (that year itself) and earlier this year, I sent 2 to NGC for grading and it came back ungraded with the remarks about authenticity in question. I bought those coins in year 2000 and I am very sure that these are not fakes. How do I authenticate that it is genuine.

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#27 2011-11-13 10:24:37

yennus
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

25Grizzlies wrote:
Javacoffee wrote:

I bought some Silver Pandas year 2000 - double seal (that year itself) and earlier this year, I sent 2 to NGC for grading and it came back ungraded with the remarks about authenticity in question. I bought those coins in year 2000 and I am very sure that these are not fakes. How do I authenticate that it is genuine.

.
Pics, we need good pics taken of them.  If NGC grades them counterfeit they are because they test for silver content, let alone appearances... sorry sounds like you were scammed.  Curious to know, what did NGC charge you for that?

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#28 2011-11-13 10:25:11

yennus
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Javacoffee wrote:

Photos of the 2000 China Panda. NGC did not return my original capsule. Came back in a 2x2 flip

154_panda_2000_2.jpg

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#29 2011-11-13 10:28:25

yennus
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

yennus wrote:

You got a copy of the letter from NGC? Thanks.

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#30 2011-11-13 10:29:11

yennus
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

25Grizzlies wrote:

Very interesting Java, I'd definitely be getting along to your local coin dealer to get tested for silver content... to my eye anyway it looks genuine.   Unreal fake if it really is.  Whereabouts in Australia are you? 

I'm comparing it to a MS69 '00 that I have.

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#31 2011-11-13 10:29:26

yennus
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

yennus wrote:

Looks pretty legit to me. Have you weighed it?

<Moving this topic across to the Phoney Bears section in a couple of hours>

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#32 2011-11-13 10:29:58

yennus
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

comeaux wrote:

I had this happen one time when I sent a 1 oz BU Silver Chinese Panda 1995 in OMP (not micro) in to NCS. It was returned as "Questionable Authenticity". After 100's of submissions this is the only coin that I have ever seen this occur with "Questionable Authenticity"   

I called NGC with questioning why the coin was not graded. They told me that they are not saying the coin is a fake but that they cannot conclusively 100% confirm that the coin is in fact authentic. The NGC guarantee puts a lot of liability on them and I can understand their reasoning in not grading the coin.

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#33 2011-11-13 10:30:22

yennus
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Javacoffee wrote:

I got them in year 2000 itself and I am very sure these are not fakes. In fact, there were no fakes then. It makes no sense to fake the Pandas then because they were cheap. It cost me less then USD$15, including shipping at that time. I've shown them around to some dealers and they are very certain that these are genuine. I'm actually quite pissed off with NGC.

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#34 2011-11-13 10:30:37

yennus
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Javacoffee wrote:
yennus wrote:

You got a copy of the letter from NGC? Thanks.

Let me search for it and I'll show it to you. They also kept my original capsule and return the coins in mylar flip

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#35 2011-11-13 10:30:58

yennus
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Thor122 wrote:

Javacoffee can you upload a complete photo with the 2x2 flip include.
I think the photos are for real panda. You weight it?

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#36 2011-11-13 10:31:10

yennus
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Javacoffee wrote:
yennus wrote:

Looks pretty legit to me. Have you weighed it?

<Moving this topic across to the Phoney Bears section in a couple of hours>

Dimension and weight is correct.

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#37 2011-11-13 10:33:18

yennus
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Javacoffee wrote:
25Grizzlies wrote:

Very interesting Java, I'd definitely be getting along to your local coin dealer to get tested for silver content... to my eye anyway it looks genuine.   Unreal fake if it really is.  Whereabouts in Australia are you? 

I'm comparing it to a MS69 '00 that I have.

I'm from Singapore smile. Bought the coins back in year 2000 from a dealer in US. Anyway, don't think I will get it tested because it will damage the coin. I'm thinking of sending it to PCGS

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#38 2011-11-13 10:39:37

yennus
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

I think sending it to PCGS is a good idea. They should be able to add clarity to this issue.

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#39 2011-11-13 17:53:14

25Grizzlies
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

yennus wrote:
Javacoffee wrote:
25Grizzlies wrote:

Very interesting Java, I'd definitely be getting along to your local coin dealer to get tested for silver content... to my eye anyway it looks genuine.   Unreal fake if it really is.  Whereabouts in Australia are you? 

I'm comparing it to a MS69 '00 that I have.

I'm from Singapore smile. Bought the coins back in year 2000 from a dealer in US. Anyway, don't think I will get it tested because it will damage the coin. I'm thinking of sending it to PCGS

Testing won't damage the coin at all... they shoot EMP waves through the coin to determine it's metal content.

By the way great foresight on buying these back in '00!!  Man I wish I knew about Pandas back then... imagine the possibilties cool

Last edited by 25Grizzlies (2011-11-13 23:23:46)


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#40 2011-11-13 21:47:21

comeaux
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Javacoffee wrote:

They also kept my original capsule and return the coins in mylar flip

Here is why your capsules were not returned …

submissionrules.jpg

This has been my experience through several submissions … and I usually get all OMP back even though they claim it will not be returned. 

On the comments line on the submission for every coin I write "please conserve NCS then grade/encapsulate NGC, please return original mint packaging including soft plastic if possible … thanks !!!"

I don't know why but if I submit to NGC they will only send the capsules back and not the soft plastic.

Going back to the coin that was rejected as "questionable authenticity" I know the frustration as like I said it happened to me. Once I got over the irritation of them rejecting a perfectly good coin, I did understand that their guarantee is at stake and they could lose a lot of money not to mention credibility if the coin would be counterfeit so naturally they will lean to the side of caution. There has been a tremendous amount of 2000 fakes and they have no clue that your coin was purchased back in 2000 when they were not even being counterfeited.

I have seen a few people who recently got 2000's rejected ... I don't know what NGC is seeing that appears anamalous ?

In a way it is a good thing if you think about it (unless it's your or my coin !) that they would be more cautious, that way we can buy graded coins confidently. As I stated above, when I questioned NGC they stated that they are not saying the coin is counterfeit, they are just saying that they cannot say 100% that is is authentic. 

You may want to resubmit the coin to NCS or try PCGS as suggested.

On the coin of mine that I mentioned above in the other post, I called NGC and asked that they look at it again so I did resubmit my coin and it came back ungraded as "details" with hairlines but that didn't surprise me as later I found out the dealer was one that admittedly removed coins to "wash" them and then reseal so who truly knows what happened to that coin of mine. As it turns out the coin was not really "OMP" or what I consider "OMP" but I guess that would be another topic ... big_smile


"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing"

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#41 2011-11-13 22:05:14

Javacoffee
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

25Grizzlies wrote:
yennus wrote:
Javacoffee wrote:

I'm from Singapore smile. Bought the coins back in year 2000 from a dealer in US. Anyway, don't think I will get it tested because it will damage the coin. I'm thinking of sending it to PCGS

Testing won't damage the coin at all... they shoot EMP waves through the coin to determine it's metal content.

None of the dealers here has the kind of EMP equipment. It is still traditional acid testing and only the jewelry shops do that.

Is it common in Australia for dealers to conduct EMP testing?

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#42 2011-11-13 22:16:41

Javacoffee
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

comeaux wrote:
Javacoffee wrote:

They also kept my original capsule and return the coins in mylar flip

Here is why your capsules were not returned …

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh21 … nrules.jpg

This has been my experience through several submissions … and I usually get all OMP back even though they claim it will not be returned. 

On the comments line on the submission for every coin I write "please conserve NCS then grade/encapsulate NGC, please return original mint packaging including soft plastic if possible … thanks !!!"

I don't know why but if I submit to NGC they will only send the capsules back and not the soft plastic.

Going back to the coin that was rejected as "questionable authenticity" I know the frustration as like I said it happened to me. Once I got over the irritation of them rejecting a perfectly good coin, I did understand that their guarantee is at stake and they could lose a lot of money not to mention credibility if the coin would be counterfeit so naturally they will lean to the side of caution. There has been a tremendous amount of 2000 fakes and they have no clue that your coin was purchased back in 2000 when they were not even being counterfeited.

I have seen a few people who recently got 2000's rejected ... I don't know what NGC is seeing that appears anamalous ?

In a way it is a good thing if you think about it (unless it's your or my coin !) that they would be more cautious, that way we can buy graded coins confidently. As I stated above, when I questioned NGC they stated that they are not saying the coin is counterfeit, they are just saying that they cannot say 100% that is is authentic. 

You may want to resubmit the coin to NCS or try PCGS as suggested.

On the coin of mine that I mentioned above in the other post, I called NGC and asked that they look at it again so I did resubmit my coin and it came back ungraded as "details" with hairlines but that didn't surprise me as later I found out the dealer was one that admittedly removed coins to "wash" them and then reseal so who truly knows what happened to that coin of mine. As it turns out the coin was not really "OMP" or what I consider "OMP" but I guess that would be another topic ... big_smile

Hi comeaux
Thanks for pointing that out. I submitted my coins through a local dealer and did not see that "fine print" which you have brought up. I guess the frustration is having a genuine coin in original packing and now, returned from NGC ungraded with a comment "questionable authenticity" and stored in a flip.

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#43 2011-11-13 23:12:33

25Grizzlies
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Javacoffee wrote:
25Grizzlies wrote:
yennus wrote:

Testing won't damage the coin at all... they shoot EMP waves through the coin to determine it's metal content.

None of the dealers here has the kind of EMP equipment. It is still traditional acid testing and only the jewelry shops do that.

Is it common in Australia for dealers to conduct EMP testing?


yes it is, i had a fake tested that way... obviuosly you shouldnt acid test the coin.. i like yennus idea of sending it to PCGS


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#44 2011-11-13 23:17:37

25Grizzlies
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Great read Comeaux!!  big_smile

Do you know if NCG for sure electronically check submitted coins for metal content?

Last edited by 25Grizzlies (2011-11-13 23:19:31)


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#45 2011-11-14 00:13:52

comeaux
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Thanks 25grizzlies !

Yes NGC does metallurgical analysis but that is a separate service of $75.

A person may say "WTF … $75 for a metallurgical analysis???" but then again, this would be a small fee on a high value coin. My coin in question was not high value so I opted out of having it done.

We must also remember that the latest "super counterfeits" were even correct in their metallurgical composition. The counterfeiters realized that for $35 of silver they could replicate a coin worth a $1,000 or more … I'm not saying this is the case with java's coin just conveying the "state of affairs" we are faced with nowadays. Not just pandas but all high value coins in general.

If you go to NGC or PCGS sites they are listing on a daily basis some new "counterfeit alert" and it is predominately old/rare US coins. 


Javacoffee like I said bro, I completely understand your frustration and I made SEVERAL calls to NGC before relenting that I had to accept what I was refusing to want to accept because it's bullsh*t. 

Also man I hate to be a "turd in the punchbowl" but are you absolutely 100% sure of the dealer that you had "submit" for you? I'm not accusing anyone of anything just want to make sure you know the guy well. 

The phenomenal increase in demand and value of Modern Chinese Coins in general has people doing crazy things that they would ordinarily have not done in the past.

The most logical scenario is that your dealer is honest and your coin is 100% authentic. Maybe it is just an uncharacteristic strike or something that is throwing NGC off.

I know how pissed you must be because I was fired up over a common panda, not a 2000 panda. 

Well good luck my man and hopefully you can get PCGS to give you some positive feedback on your coin.


"Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing"

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#46 2011-11-25 22:24:25

Teh silvers
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Is this a real 2000 panda?
160688304451

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#47 2011-11-25 23:08:59

25Grizzlies
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Teh silvers wrote:

Is this a real 2000 panda?
160688304451


It's not mint sealed, I admit don't know enough about coloured '00's, that's assuming that they even exist.  looks legit original issue but who knows what's been done to it since. 

Big no from me.


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#48 2011-11-26 02:08:27

Pandacollector
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

From what I know, the color was added in Germany. This one isn't aging well. The underlying coin is probably real.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
http://www.pandacollector.com

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#49 2011-11-30 23:25:06

Stubiter
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Is this a counterfeit Panda
150707654317
http://www.ebay.de/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll … CA:ES:1465

based on the plastic pouch, general appearance and the eye of the panda in the background which looks a bit off I think it is....

I have my doubts about some of his listings as well.

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#50 2011-12-01 01:58:29

Pandacollector
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Re: Phoney Pandas 山寨

Stubiter wrote:

Is this a counterfeit Panda
150707654317
http://www.ebay.de/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll … CA:ES:1465

based on the plastic pouch, general appearance and the eye of the panda in the background which looks a bit off I think it is....

I have my doubts about some of his listings as well.

It looks pretty bad to me.

Best wishes,
Peter Anthony
www.pandacollector.com

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