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#26 2011-08-01 09:30:50

mfm
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Registered: 2011-07-02
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

yennus wrote:

All dealers aren't expected to buy back silver coins, and it may have nothing to do with 'counterfeiting' - but rather, they just don't buy silver.

I think counterfeiting was mentioned atleast in the shopping video, but I could be wrong. Still they are less liquid than gold pandas.

While not in the PRC, Bank of China HK trades in gold pandas, silver bars and silver maples, but not silver pandas...

And of course anyone questioning anything in this thread must have "pandaphobia", that must be why I bought a bunch of silver pandas in the last weeks, and bought two 1oz gold pandas today...

Last edited by mfm (2011-08-01 09:43:09)

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#27 2011-08-01 10:07:34

yennus
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

Questioning is not the same as asserting. Someone made the audaciously false claim "Actually its common for shops in China not to buy back silver pandas because of the massive counterfeiting."

Genuine questions are welcome. Critical thinking is welcome... False information is not.

Please feel free to retract your unsubstantiated statement, and I'll forget about all this.

Please also feel free to withdraw this comment unless you can support it: "...Bank of China HK trades in ... silver maples, but not silver pandas..."

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#28 2011-08-01 17:57:58

somerset
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From: QLD
Registered: 2011-05-17
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

mfm wrote:
yennus wrote:

All dealers aren't expected to buy back silver coins, and it may have nothing to do with 'counterfeiting' - but rather, they just don't buy silver.

I think counterfeiting was mentioned atleast in the shopping video, but I could be wrong. Still they are less liquid than gold pandas.

While not in the PRC, Bank of China HK trades in gold pandas, silver bars and silver maples, but not silver pandas...

And of course anyone questioning anything in this thread must have "pandaphobia", that must be why I bought a bunch of silver pandas in the last weeks, and bought two 1oz gold pandas today...

It's not that you are being accused of pandaphobia - it's just that your claims are very broad and needs some qualification in their current form.

For example, your BOCHK reference - you could post up a link of their PM list and prices

http://www.bochk.com/web/market/trading … ldr_id=279


For the rest of your comments, I can equally say: not all dealers will buy back silver bars or coins and not all banks can buy back silver bullion.

BOCHK doesn't buy back Australian coins or American coins on the list - so... what's your point?


Inflation is taxation without legislation - Milton Friedman

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#29 2011-08-01 18:00:21

fishball
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From: Shin Sekai Yori
Registered: 2011-04-11
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

mfm wrote:

I think counterfeiting was mentioned atleast in the shopping video, but I could be wrong. Still they are less liquid than gold pandas.

mfm wrote:

Actually its common for shops in China not to buy back silver pandas because of the massive counterfeiting.

You say you could be wrong yet you clearly said because of counterfeiting. I mean come on, if you aren't even sure of what you're saying then don't make assumptions. That's what makes yennus think you're a pandaphobe.

Bank of China HK also doesn't buy or sell any ASEs, does that mean they're worried about counterfeit ASEs...?

You aren't merely questioning the thread, you're pretty much just spreading plain misinformation and yennus is correcting you.

Last edited by fishball (2011-08-01 18:10:42)

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#30 2011-08-02 02:08:10

silverlover
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

I notice this too with not just Pandaphobes but a few other peeps as well. They are not open to learning or just being critical just for curiosity sake, rather they attack in an underhand way. Like they are trying to put you down because you made a good move by purchasing say a 2010 lunar tiger for $1 or $2 more than a 2010 eagle a year ago when spot was in the hi teens and they need to vent on your success for missing out on the boat.

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#31 2011-08-02 02:34:04

fishball
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From: Shin Sekai Yori
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

mfm wrote:

BOC HK trade gold pandas (all sizes), gold maples (all sizes), 1 oz silver maples but no silver pandas even though BOC CN is a big seller of pandas in the mainland.

BOC doesn't sell or buy Silver Pandas in China or HK. Do you know why? Because Pandas have numismatic value and the bank cannot gauge the market prices properly so they don't deal in them. Notice how they don't sell prior year Gold pandas either.

mfm wrote:

Facts: There is massive conunterfeiting of silver pandas and numerous shops don't buy silver pandas back.

Maybe these two facts are unrelated but I would assume not.

Go and look up Correlation != Causation on Google. Enough said.

mfm wrote:

The guy who asked a Shanghai dealer if they bought back pandas said: "They buy gold back but not silver, because of piracy." ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RagTufHfvNI ). I don't know if the shop said it or not.

Some random dude on youtube who said that someone may have said something is not fact.

mfm wrote:

So I will draw my own conclusions of the liquidity of silver pandas in China and HK. Just the fact that you have to smuggle pandas over the Chinese border makes silver pandas (or silver at all) quite irrelevant  in the mentioned SHTF scenarios because of the much lower value for it's size.

Feel free to draw your own conclusions but don't present 'facts' which are blatantly wrong.

And all this 'smuggling pandas' out is wrong. It's more like China has a tax on Silver exports, same with Cigarettes among many other things.

Nothing to do with pandas specifically.

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#32 2011-08-02 03:17:00

ToDaMoon
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From: Bourke
Registered: 2011-06-10
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

It's all just smart marketing.

Yennus has a product to sell .. he is creating a demand for that product.

Any marketing person knows that you find that facts that showcase your brand against any other brand. You don't go showing people the common or less than ideal scenarios, you show the "best stuff". As an example companies do not advertise cleaning products as not being able to pick up 1% of the bacteria when cleaning. They promote that it wipes away 99% of bacteria. Sounds much better.

The arguments could go on and on regarding the following examples

Jim Rogers buys Pandas  - sounds great, but Jim Rogers no doubt buys more than Pandas.
The percentage of pandas to the chinese population - sounds good however how many Chinese can afford a panda (we could say the same about ASEs versus USA population or any other coin)?
The numbers of ASEs vs Maples vs Panda etc and on and on

but in the end it DOESN'T matter how many coins there are per unit of population or the high falutent people that buy them. It matters how much worth you place on something that has in intrinsic value of the material it is made up of. Increasing the worth of the product in other people's eyes is the aim of marketing. Good marketing skills help promote one type of good over another (have a look at the iPhone and iPad and the premiums these go for).

Yennus is simply using the facts that allow him to show case his product that will help him to sell his goods at the largest possible profit. Create a higher and higher demand and people will buy the product at higher prices. Is there anything wrong with that?

Last edited by ToDaMoon (2011-08-02 03:17:39)


Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws.
Mayer Amschel Rothschild, 1790

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#33 2011-08-02 03:56:39

mmm....shiney!
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From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

Well phil, you lost me there mate.

I love Pandas because I believe they offer the best return of any Au/Ag/Pt coin that is mass produced in the world.  I and many others (incl yennus) like to share experiences with other members of this forum because we have received good advice at no cost from them - and so we want to give good advice back at no cost. As a result, I submit posts about how good Pandas are for investing and what to buy.

Your suggestion that yennus is merely a marketeer trying to create extra profit for himself by talking up the value of Pandas is inappropriate and makes me defensive.

Sure, he wants to sell his coins, but he also wants everyone to learn about the great opportunities out there.

This thread has taken a distinctly personal turn lately - the OP posted this thread so others could share their opinions of why Pandas are a smart investment. If you or anyone else want to post  why Pandas are not the best coins - start another thread and leave the personal assumptions aside.


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"Every day is ordinary, until it isn't."

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#34 2011-08-02 04:15:51

somerset
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From: QLD
Registered: 2011-05-17
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

mmm....shiney! wrote:

If you or anyone else want to post  why Pandas are not the best coins - start another thread and leave the personal assumptions aside.

+1 mmm... shiney!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but if you have one, best back them up with some facts.

Yennus has taken the time to write his opinion and backed it up as much as possible - I don't see the follow up posts do this or say why other coins are a better investment.

"Facts" that have been presented so far use youtube and random musings about smuggling and marketing.

People stack for profit and many other world coins have been sold for great multiples of their melt value. Closer to home - look at the lunar coins and the hype on the new dragons.

If you think Yennus can influence the world market - then think again. Might as well have a go at Panda Collector while you're at it - he's been doing this for much longer than all of us, written a book and has a subscription service that has a worldwide audience.


Inflation is taxation without legislation - Milton Friedman

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#35 2011-08-02 04:28:36

ToDaMoon
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From: Bourke
Registered: 2011-06-10
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

mmm....shiney! wrote:

Well phil, you lost me there mate.

I love Pandas because I believe they offer the best return of any Au/Ag/Pt coin that is mass produced in the world.  I and many others (incl yennus) like to share experiences with other members of this forum because we have received good advice at no cost from them - and so we want to give good advice back at no cost. As a result, I submit posts about how good Pandas are for investing and what to buy.

Your suggestion that yennus is merely a marketeer trying to create extra profit for himself by talking up the value of Pandas is inappropriate and makes me defensive.

Sure, he wants to sell his coins, but he also wants everyone to learn about the great opportunities out there.

This thread has taken a distinctly personal turn lately - the OP posted this thread so others could share their opinions of why Pandas are a smart investment. If you or anyone else want to post  why Pandas are not the best coins - start another thread and leave the personal assumptions aside.

Sorry if you see the comments like that Shiney .. everyone markets .. not just Yennus .. whenever a sales thread comes up the person selling the product is in effect marketing the product they sell .. they are promoting their product is worthy of buying, either by photos or the brand nameof the product itself. Yennus has the right to do the same.

I would think anyone selling a product on this forum would be looking to make a profit rather than a loss? It is marketing pure and simple. Increase interest and you increase demand, increase demand and prices by their vary nature also increase. I commented about normal market forces. If anyone can increase the demand on their product by adding a photo or putting a more positive description on what they are selling then they deserve the reward that comes their way.

Demand can increase by marketing the positive side of things as opposed to the negative side of things, so why wouldn't you do that?


Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws.
Mayer Amschel Rothschild, 1790

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#36 2011-08-02 04:51:43

jpanggy
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From: Melbourne
Registered: 2011-06-22
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

Maybe time to calm down a bit everyone.

Phil has valid points, just maybe at wrong time and place so it seems like a personal attack. I am sure it is just a misunderstanding.

This all started taking turns for the wrong when half facts and assumptions are thrown in.

Here are the half facts and my personal take:

Panda illiquid in China
The argument here is shops won't take panda silver coins. Well put this in context, physical bullion trading is a small market. If you think the whole world knows what a bullion looks like, then that is a huge assumption. Small traders on the street won't be able to tell silver from chrome, so does most people on the street, hence physical trading in the streets are not that common. This is left to specialised dealers, people who knows what they are dealing with. I am sure there are dealers in China that will trade Pandas. Just like here in Australia, not everyone buys back metal.

Banks don't take silver pandas
A lot of banks don't trade in precious metals, and the ones that does is done on special counter normally. Try trading in your kangaroo in a normal westpac branch or any bank, they will just take the face value and give you dollar notes.

Pandas getting smuggled
Everything gets smuggled in and out of china and any country in the world. How does this affect the value of pandas?

Massive counterfeit of pandas
Counterfeit is happening for a lot of products from clothes to artworks, doesn't make the original article less valuable or more valuable. But it does increase the value of an established and trusted supply channel.

So, if you have counter argument, I am sure we are happy to hear it, but no personal attacks or speculative half facts.

Yennus is passionate about Pandas, if that rubs anyone the wrong way, you are entitled to your own opinion, but maybe silence is gold if there is nothing nice to say.

Last edited by jpanggy (2011-08-02 06:34:31)


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#37 2011-08-02 11:50:41

yennus
Silver Stacker
From: Shanghai:Sydney
Registered: 2010-10-24
Posts: 4,785
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

philmart wrote:

It's all just smart marketing. Yennus has a product to sell .. he is creating a demand for that product.

This is a really unfair comment to make, especially on a post that is titled "Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment". Unfair on at least three levels:
1. Instead of attacking the reasons and facts on Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment, you have decided to attack me personally.
2. Why did you choose to label me alone? There are plenty of others that sell Pandas on this forum, take a look at the list here: http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic- … -from.html , or even in the site sponsor forums.
3. It is incredibly rude to label me directly. Would you do this in the Lunar forum? Would you label and attack a person for posting a thread like "How quickly will the 2012 Silver Lunar Dragon sell out?" and say what that person is  doing is "all just smart marketing"? Next time some one posts their opinion on why a certain Lunar is a good buy, why don't you go and do the same thing that you have done to me?

philmart wrote:

The percentage of pandas to the chinese population - sounds good however how many Chinese can afford a panda (we could say the same about ASEs versus USA population or any other coin)?

I probably think there are a lot more people in China that can afford to buy the Pandas than you do (yeah, at least 1billion people). But here's the point, there only needs to be less than 10million people in China to want ONE Panda, and that's more than the Pandas current supply (because of their rarity). Is it likely that at least 10million people want a Panda in China? YES! The statistics show that... otherwise the Pandas would have zero numismatic/premium value.

philmart wrote:

Yennus is simply using the facts ...

You should have just stopped there.

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#38 2011-08-02 11:53:11

yennus
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From: Shanghai:Sydney
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

jpanggy wrote:

Yennus is passionate about Pandas, if that rubs anyone the wrong way, you are entitled to your own opinion, but maybe silence is gold if there is nothing nice to say.

Thanks jpanggy, much appreciated smile ... some good old fashion wisdom in that comment. smile

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#39 2011-08-02 14:17:57

yennus
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From: Shanghai:Sydney
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

In an attempt to bring this thread back on topic, Pandas are a Good/Better/Best Investment coins for the following reasons:

1. Affordable Bullion (equivalent to Roo pricing)
2. Numismatic (they gain a numismatic edge after their release)
3. Liquid Worldwide (they can be easily sold in many countries, especially in Asia)
4. Price Stable (their prices don't move as violently downwards as spot silver/gold does)
5. 999 purity makes them qualify as bullion coins, and is the desired purity for Asian dealers.
6. Demand (domestically and internationally) is high
7. Rare (they are a relatively rare type of bullion)
8. Jim Rogers (bullish on Pandas)

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#40 2011-08-02 15:00:42

yennus
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

<please keep conversations on topic... thank you>

Discussions on:

1. What countries regulate the import/export of gold
2. Whether gold can be imported into China
3. YouTube videos (especially with blatantly wrong translations)
4. Why BOC HK accepts one type of bullion over another

can be discussed in new threads.

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#41 2011-08-11 19:44:03

Pandora
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From: United States
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

The Key Date Panda coins will always appreciate faster than common dates. Lot of chinese people collect Pandas from 2000-2011, forgoing pre-2000 coins which have already appreciated a lot. 2000, 2002 and 2003 seem to be the key coins for this series. MS70 graded coins for these years are already in $1500-2500 range, but MS69s are plentiful.

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#42 2011-08-30 01:35:40

940palmtx
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From: Atlanta, Georgia-United States
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

I'm going to call my bank in the morning, tell 'em I have some ASEs and ask 'em how much they'll buy them for LOL SMH. When they tell me they don't buy silver, I'll ask about gold wink
Point is I don't care what the banks in China will and won't buy, if I want to market my bullion and numismatics, I have to sell to 'people' and right now people are crazy for pandas!
And I'll take a Roo or three for 47 thank you, as long as it's a RAM Roo smile

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#43 2011-08-30 01:39:06

yennus
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

You're absolutely right! smile

That's what this Panda Forum is hopefully helping people to do smile

Connecting Panda fans across the globe smile

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#44 2011-08-30 01:50:05

petercamperdown
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From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: 2011-04-10
Posts: 511
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

Thanks to you Yennus I am now collecting all sorts of chinese coins. There are many proof coins that are just great looking coins. You have to do a load of searching but there are some at good prices still. But the Panda coins reign supreme in my eyes

Last edited by petercamperdown (2011-08-30 01:50:28)


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#45 2011-10-08 20:40:43

tetradrachm
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From: Australia
Registered: 2010-07-03
Posts: 46
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

All this investment discussion is fine BUT...

... Folk should remember that plenty of people have "lost their shirts" by getting way too comfortable around pandas..


"The ultimate consequence of protecting men from the results of their own folly is to fill the world with fools." Herbert Spencer

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#46 2011-10-08 20:49:10

tetradrachm
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From: Australia
Registered: 2010-07-03
Posts: 46
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

OOPs.. screwed the youtube link up, in previous post. Hopefully:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubZimS4E … re=related


"The ultimate consequence of protecting men from the results of their own folly is to fill the world with fools." Herbert Spencer

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#47 2011-10-08 21:55:07

Dandan
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From: Melbourne
Registered: 2011-08-31
Posts: 526
Trades :   35 

Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

This does not disprove pandas being a good investment. It does illustrate the stupidity of people getting too close while wearing bamboo deodorant.

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#48 2011-10-08 22:05:09

yennus
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From: Shanghai:Sydney
Registered: 2010-10-24
Posts: 4,785
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

The Great FireWall is blocking my access to YouTube at the moment... I hope this video is PG rated smile

HAhaha....ok... just saw it... awww.... the Panda wants to play smile

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#49 2011-10-09 00:57:59

El Bullion
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From: Australia
Registered: 2011-01-06
Posts: 142
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

Here's a PG one...panda goodness:

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#50 2011-10-09 01:04:07

940palmtx
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From: Atlanta, Georgia-United States
Registered: 2011-08-28
Posts: 1,214
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Re: [PR] Why Pandas Are A Good/Better/Best Investment

Dandan wrote:

This does not disprove pandas being a good investment. It does illustrate the stupidity of people getting too close while wearing bamboo deodorant.

LMAO!!!

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