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  • » Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

#1 2017-02-15 13:50:08

barsenault
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From: South Carolina
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Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

Wow.  Good article.  Finally getting mainstream press! About time

http://news.coinupdate.com/milk-spots-o … -an-issue/


www.chinesemedals.com  Here is our website. We do collect, but we also sell what we collect, to folks like you, all over the world.

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#2 2017-02-15 20:16:27

Soprano16
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From: Melbourne
Registered: 2016-12-28
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

"The Perth Mint has also taken steps to both identify and try to tackle the problem. Two years ago officials at Perth said that, after ruling out suspicions of "poor water quality and crucible contamination," that "an accumulation of microscopic silver chloride debris are responsible for leaving the blotches." As a result of these findings, the mint implemented some measures to reduce the frequency of the spots, including "routine cleanings of its airline filters so as to remove any oil and water build-up" and "replacement of its air conditioning filters" to eliminate the chances of "airborne microscopics" appearing in any of the areas where coins are made.

Those efforts appear to have been successful in reducing the number and frequency of milk spots on coins from Perth, but according to many posters at the SilverStackers forum, the issue continues to plague coins from this mint. I found their comments surprising, since I have not seen a lot of spots on Perth coins I have purchased.

LOL, I'd say this is a direct reference to the recent Perth Mint Milk Spot discussion thread

I agree with this author, I too have not seen a lot of spot on Perth Mint Coins, but obviously a lot of members here have

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#3 2017-02-15 21:01:41

SpacePete
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

In more recent years, planchets have become more uniform in their weight and size—but a new type of mint-made defect has developed. Some world mints are using washes and lubricants to make the coins look better and easier to strike. By washing the planchets before striking, the coins generally look better and the chance of foreign objects sticking to the metal is reduced. The lubricants make the coins easier to strike, thus speeding up the production process.

While these substances generally improve efficiency and aesthetics, they have a potential negative downside. If some residue is left remaining on the coin, it can result in haze, milk spots or ugly toning. There are many modern coins that have immaculate surfaces but exhibit detracting discoloration. Even without being touched by human hands—or even before leaving the mint—these coins have already acquired defects.

https://www.texmetals.com/news/the-orig … ion-coins/

http://forums.silverstackers.com/message-846587.html


Catus amat piscem, sed non vult tingere plantas

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#4 2017-02-15 21:04:27

SpacePete
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

A different theory: Mechanical polish vs. chemical treatment.


3.   The change of minting process of forming mirror surface has caused more and quicker white spots formation. The old method in produce mirror surface was mechanical polish. The current method is via a chemical treatment. Apparently, according to the authors, the chemical treatment produces a rougher surface than mechanical polish. It is known that the moisture can adhere to a rougher surface better than a smooth surface, therefore, the reaction of forming silver chloride film on the silver surface is being accelerated.

So maybe the problem with pollutants has always been there, but the change in the minting process makes spotting more likely to occur now.


Catus amat piscem, sed non vult tingere plantas

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#5 2017-02-15 23:32:25

mmissinglink
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From: Everywhere...simultaneously
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

I was just about to share that article when I saw that barsenault beat me to it.


A couple of take-away points:

1)  lots of people read comments on the SS forum but probably never chime in....which is fine.

2)  the more the issue is discussed intelligently, the more likely knowledge about the exact cause will come to light and hopefully, if buying patterns change enough, the mints may (as unlikely as it seems now) need to much more strongly consider how they manufacture coins they sell with a collector premium.





.


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#6 2017-02-16 01:29:41

andrewlee10
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

Soprano16 wrote:

"The Perth Mint has also taken steps to both identify and try to tackle the problem. Two years ago officials at Perth said that, after ruling out suspicions of "poor water quality and crucible contamination," that "an accumulation of microscopic silver chloride debris are responsible for leaving the blotches." As a result of these findings, the mint implemented some measures to reduce the frequency of the spots, including "routine cleanings of its airline filters so as to remove any oil and water build-up" and "replacement of its air conditioning filters" to eliminate the chances of "airborne microscopics" appearing in any of the areas where coins are made.

Those efforts appear to have been successful in reducing the number and frequency of milk spots on coins from Perth, but according to many posters at the SilverStackers forum, the issue continues to plague coins from this mint. I found their comments surprising, since I have not seen a lot of spots on Perth coins I have purchased.

LOL, I'd say this is a direct reference to the recent Perth Mint Milk Spot discussion thread

I agree with this author, I too have not seen a lot of spot on Perth Mint Coins, but obviously a lot of members here have

Poor water quality of Australia is much better than China. Panda coin mint in Shanghai, Shen Zhen and Shenyang which those cities are well know in air or/and water pollution.

Anyone has statistic of complaint of white spot of Australia bullion coin vs China panda coin?

WHY white spot happen more often at bullion coin and NOT proof coin? This puzzle me


www.chinesemedals.com  Here is our website. We do collect, but we also sell what we collect, to folks like you, all over the world.

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#7 2017-02-16 02:17:27

barneyrubble
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From: Brisbane
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

mmissinglink wrote:

I was just about to share that article when I saw that barsenault beat me to it.


1)  lots of people read comments on the SS forum but probably never chime in....which is fine.


.

This is me, however I do come here for the information. The level of knowledge continues to suprise me.

And thanks for posting the article too OP.

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#8 2017-02-16 04:05:56

Ipv6Ready
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From: North Sydney
Registered: 2016-01-08
Posts: 2,094
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

andrewlee10 wrote:
Soprano16 wrote:

"The Perth Mint has also taken steps to both identify and try to tackle the problem. Two years ago officials at Perth said that, after ruling out suspicions of "poor water quality and crucible contamination," that "an accumulation of microscopic silver chloride debris are responsible for leaving the blotches." As a result of these findings, the mint implemented some measures to reduce the frequency of the spots, including "routine cleanings of its airline filters so as to remove any oil and water build-up" and "replacement of its air conditioning filters" to eliminate the chances of "airborne microscopics" appearing in any of the areas where coins are made.

Those efforts appear to have been successful in reducing the number and frequency of milk spots on coins from Perth, but according to many posters at the SilverStackers forum, the issue continues to plague coins from this mint. I found their comments surprising, since I have not seen a lot of spots on Perth coins I have purchased.

LOL, I'd say this is a direct reference to the recent Perth Mint Milk Spot discussion thread

I agree with this author, I too have not seen a lot of spot on Perth Mint Coins, but obviously a lot of members here have

Poor water quality of Australia is much better than China. Panda coin mint in Shanghai, Shen Zhen and Shenyang which those cities are well know in air or/and water pollution.

Anyone has statistic of complaint of white spot of Australia bullion coin vs China panda coin?

WHY white spot happen more often at bullion coin and NOT proof coin? This puzzle me

Quality of water could depend on how the water was cleaned/filtered/purified, rather than how dirty the source water is.

Last edited by Ipv6Ready (2017-02-16 04:07:09)


Interested in a wide variety of low premium legal tender World Silver coins, average conditions is fine.
Will pay a decent premium for a variety different silver coins in single lots, not looking 10, 20 or more of same coins.
Note I tumble these to clean them before I put it in jars for display, so I dont want to buy any rare coins for preservation.

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#9 2017-02-16 06:40:54

dragafem
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From: Sunshine State
Registered: 2012-01-16
Posts: 4,298
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

andrewlee10 wrote:
Soprano16 wrote:

"The Perth Mint has also taken steps to both identify and try to tackle the problem. Two years ago officials at Perth said that, after ruling out suspicions of "poor water quality and crucible contamination," that "an accumulation of microscopic silver chloride debris are responsible for leaving the blotches." As a result of these findings, the mint implemented some measures to reduce the frequency of the spots, including "routine cleanings of its airline filters so as to remove any oil and water build-up" and "replacement of its air conditioning filters" to eliminate the chances of "airborne microscopics" appearing in any of the areas where coins are made.

Those efforts appear to have been successful in reducing the number and frequency of milk spots on coins from Perth, but according to many posters at the SilverStackers forum, the issue continues to plague coins from this mint. I found their comments surprising, since I have not seen a lot of spots on Perth coins I have purchased.

LOL, I'd say this is a direct reference to the recent Perth Mint Milk Spot discussion thread

I agree with this author, I too have not seen a lot of spot on Perth Mint Coins, but obviously a lot of members here have

Poor water quality of Australia is much better than China. Panda coin mint in Shanghai, Shen Zhen and Shenyang which those cities are well know in air or/and water pollution.

Anyone has statistic of complaint of white spot of Australia bullion coin vs China panda coin?

WHY white spot happen more often at bullion coin and NOT proof coin? This puzzle me

not to worry there.these spots are everywhere.proof coins are not exempt either. But one thing makes me wonder how come I have never seen any spot or toning for that matter on any proof coin made for Tuvalu and such-if Im correct perth mint makes them too.just grab any BU or proof coin which says Tuvalu o back and you wont find any blemish. same thing apply for the olympic 16 coin silver set.

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#10 2017-02-16 09:30:19

andrewlee10
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From: Singapore
Registered: 2014-01-06
Posts: 1,972
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

Ipv6Ready wrote:
andrewlee10 wrote:
Soprano16 wrote:

"The Perth Mint has also taken steps to both identify and try to tackle the problem. Two years ago officials at Perth said that, after ruling out suspicions of "poor water quality and crucible contamination," that "an accumulation of microscopic silver chloride debris are responsible for leaving the blotches." As a result of these findings, the mint implemented some measures to reduce the frequency of the spots, including "routine cleanings of its airline filters so as to remove any oil and water build-up" and "replacement of its air conditioning filters" to eliminate the chances of "airborne microscopics" appearing in any of the areas where coins are made.

Those efforts appear to have been successful in reducing the number and frequency of milk spots on coins from Perth, but according to many posters at the SilverStackers forum, the issue continues to plague coins from this mint. I found their comments surprising, since I have not seen a lot of spots on Perth coins I have purchased.

LOL, I'd say this is a direct reference to the recent Perth Mint Milk Spot discussion thread

I agree with this author, I too have not seen a lot of spot on Perth Mint Coins, but obviously a lot of members here have

Poor water quality of Australia is much better than China. Panda coin mint in Shanghai, Shen Zhen and Shenyang which those cities are well know in air or/and water pollution.

Anyone has statistic of complaint of white spot of Australia bullion coin vs China panda coin?

WHY white spot happen more often at bullion coin and NOT proof coin? This puzzle me

Quality of water could depend on how the water was cleaned/filtered/purified, rather than how dirty the source water is.

Even drinking water quality of those big cities if china is in questions. You can imagine of the it. How worst Australia water quality versus china. Easy answer


www.chinesemedals.com  Here is our website. We do collect, but we also sell what we collect, to folks like you, all over the world.

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#11 2017-02-16 10:30:55

mmissinglink
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From: Everywhere...simultaneously
Registered: 2012-09-30
Posts: 6,040
Trades :   19 

Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

dragafem wrote:
andrewlee10 wrote:
Soprano16 wrote:

"The Perth Mint has also taken steps to both identify and try to tackle the problem. Two years ago officials at Perth said that, after ruling out suspicions of "poor water quality and crucible contamination," that "an accumulation of microscopic silver chloride debris are responsible for leaving the blotches." As a result of these findings, the mint implemented some measures to reduce the frequency of the spots, including "routine cleanings of its airline filters so as to remove any oil and water build-up" and "replacement of its air conditioning filters" to eliminate the chances of "airborne microscopics" appearing in any of the areas where coins are made.

Those efforts appear to have been successful in reducing the number and frequency of milk spots on coins from Perth, but according to many posters at the SilverStackers forum, the issue continues to plague coins from this mint. I found their comments surprising, since I have not seen a lot of spots on Perth coins I have purchased.

LOL, I'd say this is a direct reference to the recent Perth Mint Milk Spot discussion thread

I agree with this author, I too have not seen a lot of spot on Perth Mint Coins, but obviously a lot of members here have

Poor water quality of Australia is much better than China. Panda coin mint in Shanghai, Shen Zhen and Shenyang which those cities are well know in air or/and water pollution.

Anyone has statistic of complaint of white spot of Australia bullion coin vs China panda coin?

WHY white spot happen more often at bullion coin and NOT proof coin? This puzzle me

not to worry there.these spots are everywhere.proof coins are not exempt either. But one thing makes me wonder how come I have never seen any spot or toning for that matter on any proof coin made for Tuvalu and such-if Im correct perth mint makes them too.just grab any BU or proof coin which says Tuvalu o back and you wont find any blemish. same thing apply for the olympic 16 coin silver set.



It's because of the ancient Tuvalu anti-milk spell. Can't mess with magic, man!  wink



.


In some ways, we are not that different

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#12 2017-02-16 12:19:20

badhop55
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

Another place I have seen no milk spots is 5 oz ATB Uncirculated P issue coins.

Can't recall seeing them on bullion versions either.

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#13 2017-02-16 14:19:06

mmissinglink
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From: Everywhere...simultaneously
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Posts: 6,040
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

^ I have seen many ATB "P" 5 oz coins and have never seen milk spots on any of them. My guess is that if these coins were ever to be prone to some level of milk spotting, the vapor blast finish would all but completely eliminate any chance of spots developing.

I think another member here stated that he'd seen a few of the bullion version with what looked like milk spots. I don't have much interest in the BU version and so I have not seen a lot of them....it is possible that the BU version has some minor spotting issues and if the "P" version does, it's likely to be a very rare instance.


Come to think of it now, the fact that the "P" version coins haven't been plagued by milk spots like most other silver bullion coins from around the world have, it's a good selling point for bullion coin dealers to take advantage of.




.


In some ways, we are not that different

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#14 2017-02-16 17:06:06

Ronnie 666
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From: Australia
Registered: 2011-03-16
Posts: 2,401
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

Most of the regular ATB won't have spots as they have been rubbed off. These coins in the original plastic cases are so scratched and battered it's a joke. They give new meaning to the word bag marks.

This whole thing is a scam. The water has not changed in Perth since 2000. The number of milk spots in pre 2000 coins is almost 0. From 2000-2008 there is the odd 1 or two that I have seen. From 2009 onwards it starts and certainly by last year 2016 it was epidemic. It was hard last year to find a newly minted coin without some spots especially those bigger coins like 5, 10 oz or 1kg.

Let's look at some facts:

The water used in coin production is filtered and de-mineralised.
All coins, proof and specimen / unc get it
The white colour is a precipitate of silver chloride one of the least soluble compounds known.
Spots are not removed by acid, alkali (NaOH), solvents (acetone, xylene) or alcohol.
PCGS can remove them by some method ? Which does not remove metal or damage the coin
The only way known to remove these marks (other than PCGS) is to use some abrasive method which destroys any numismatic value
These spots do reduce the numismatic value dependant on size, number and position.

There is 1 obvious fix :

DONT BUY ANY NEW COINS FROM THE MINTS UNTIL THEY FIX THIS. BUY BARS .....OR OLD COINS


"The Two Most Common Elements in the Universe Are Hydrogen and Stupidity" Frank Zappa

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#15 2017-02-16 18:03:39

badhop55
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

Wondering if anyone has seen milk spots on 2012 proof dragons?

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#16 2017-02-16 21:11:37

mmissinglink
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

Ronnie, the BU ATB's very often do have lots of problems but I have seen some fresh from a tube in super nice, nearly flawless condition. Those are the ones that get the MS69DPL grade. That said, there are none that I'm aware of that have ever graded 70. Under 5X magnification, likely all BU versions have some sort of imperfections.

On the other hand, I have held flawless (under 8X and 10X magnification) "P" version ATB's in my gloved hand. So I know that the "P" versions are in much better condition from the mint. This makes a lot of sense and hence the higher premiums.



As for milk spots, I will take your word that it started getting noticeably worse from 2009 onward. My guess is that it's not the water but rather the mint may have simply started cost cutting by cutting corners (not rinsing the detergent or whatever). That's almost always the culprit in a sudden decline in product quality of this nature.




.


In some ways, we are not that different

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#17 2017-02-16 21:35:35

Holdfast
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

badhop55 wrote:

Wondering if anyone has seen milk spots on 2012 proof dragons?

04%20November%202011%20Dragon%20Coins%20007%20-%20Copy_zpsbmjug3eu.jpg


04%20November%202011%20Dragon%20Coins%20009%20-%20Copy_zpsfcs69iv1.jpg


04%20November%202011%20Dragon%20Coins%20023%20-%20Copy_zpsnhdadbbh.jpg

Half%20oz%202012%20Dragon%20Proof%20coins%20007%20-%20Copy_zpsvk6vzn2x.jpg

Last edited by Holdfast (2017-02-16 21:44:10)

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#18 2017-02-16 23:45:54

mmissinglink
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

A favor for the entire community please:

For those who purchase lots of Perth Mint bullion coins, please make a short list of the coins that you believe (based on your observations) have the most milk spotting problem.

The more people who compile such a short list, the better idea we can have of which PM coins are the biggest problem in terms of spots.



For those who purchase lots of Royal Mint or Royal Canadian Mint bullion coins, please make a short list of the coins that you believe (based on your observations) have the most milk spotting problem.



It will be interesting to see when we compare lists, if there are clear winners (far less spot problems) and losers among bullion coins.





.


In some ways, we are not that different

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#19 2017-02-17 00:34:51

TasmaniaChrismy
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From: Tasmania, Australia
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

mmissinglink wrote:

A favor for the entire community please:

For those who purchase lots of Perth Mint bullion coins, please make a short list of the coins that you believe (based on your observations) have the most milk spotting problem.

The more people who compile such a short list, the better idea we can have of which PM coins are the biggest problem in terms of spots.



For those who purchase lots of Royal Mint or Royal Canadian Mint bullion coins, please make a short list of the coins that you believe (based on your observations) have the most milk spotting problem.



It will be interesting to see when we compare lists, if there are clear winners (far less spot problems) and losers among bullion coins.


.

Can we oso include toning?

My observations across the trades:
1) WHITE SPOT:
- S2 Lunar dragon 1oz bullion
- S2 Lunar Goat 1kg
- RCM Maple and all recent years wildlife series bullion

2) TONNING
- S2 Mouse 1oz bullion
- S2 Snake 1oz bullion

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#20 2017-02-17 12:44:01

badhop55
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From: United States
Registered: 2011-09-18
Posts: 208
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

Bummer about the colorized Dragon. What size is it?

I checked some 2012 1 oz High Relief proof Dragons last night. No spots.

On another note I checked some 1 oz bu Pandas. The 2012's had some spotting. I've got a couple 2008 slabbed and they're fine.

2011 2 oz Proof Libertads were also fine.

Last edited by badhop55 (2017-02-17 14:04:45)

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#21 2017-02-17 16:21:02

mmissinglink
Member
From: Everywhere...simultaneously
Registered: 2012-09-30
Posts: 6,040
Trades :   19 

Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

TasmaniaChrismy wrote:
mmissinglink wrote:

A favor for the entire community please:

For those who purchase lots of Perth Mint bullion coins, please make a short list of the coins that you believe (based on your observations) have the most milk spotting problem.

The more people who compile such a short list, the better idea we can have of which PM coins are the biggest problem in terms of spots.



For those who purchase lots of Royal Mint or Royal Canadian Mint bullion coins, please make a short list of the coins that you believe (based on your observations) have the most milk spotting problem.



It will be interesting to see when we compare lists, if there are clear winners (far less spot problems) and losers among bullion coins.


.

Can we oso include toning?

My observations across the trades:
1) WHITE SPOT:
- S2 Lunar dragon 1oz bullion
- S2 Lunar Goat 1kg
- RCM Maple and all recent years wildlife series bullion

2) TONNING
- S2 Mouse 1oz bullion
- S2 Snake 1oz bullion


Do you see toning as a good thing or not good thing? Seems like lots of people love certain natural toning on coins. I have mixed feelings about it. Also, I think toning is exclusively about the environment the coin is kept in and the age (everything else being equal) and nothing to do with manufacturing processes.

White spots, on the other hand, seems to be a by-product of a cost cutting manufacturing process.

White spots and toning are two different worlds it would seem.






.


In some ways, we are not that different

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#22 2017-02-17 17:53:15

Holdfast
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From: Australia
Registered: 2009-10-15
Posts: 7,957
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

badhop55 wrote:

Bummer about the colorized Dragon. What size is it?

I checked some 2012 1 oz High Relief proof Dragons last night. No spots.

On another note I checked some 1 oz bu Pandas. The 2012's had some spotting. I've got a couple 2008 slabbed and they're fine.

2011 2 oz Proof Libertads were also fine.


Size = 1oz and 1/2oz Red Coloured Dragon proof.

I haven't seen milk-spots on any of the Silver Dragon 1/2oz, 1oz, 5oz proofs or High relief 1oz coins. smile

Was very disappointed with the coloured proofs. "Thanks Perth" sad

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#23 2017-02-19 05:29:12

Holdfast
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From: Australia
Registered: 2009-10-15
Posts: 7,957
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Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

I still buy a few of their coins for the errors. big_smile

Did you notice how many claws / talons the red coloured Dragon has? roll

The stamp printer at Perth must of been high on fumes and... the quality control staff were on a Chinese noodle break! wink

What was your claw / talon count on the 1oz?

04%20November%202011%20Dragon%20Coins%20023%20-%20Copy_zpsnhdadbbh.jpg

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#24 2017-02-20 20:00:26

Jislizard
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2011-04-07
Posts: 7,419
Trades :   56 

Re: Good Article on White Spots - hopefully gets some attention!!

Great, now I have to make sure I never look too closely at my Dragon collection, I thought 2012 was before the issues started arising, I thought I was safe as that was the last time I bought the lunars big time.


The Central Bank is offering purchasers of the €10 silver proof Eileen Gray commemorative coin the option of getting their money back after a blemish was discovered on some of the coins.
It's understood that some of the coins, which are manufactured by a UK based company, have a slight blemish, or cloudiness, a characteristic not associated with proof quality coins.
"We have received some limited customer feedback about the condition of this commemorative coin. We wish to assure our customers that we take this feedback very seriously and will offer them a refund or replacement of their Eileen Gray commemorative coin. People may also wish to retain their coin," according to the Central Bank.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/fina … -1.2977981


Now stacking: World Junk Silver Coins.
Swap your older, worn, dirty fractional silver coins for fiat, .999 rounds or legal tender. 
Individual coins, mixed lots or bulk. 
Not looking for Australian, bent, holed or damaged coins, thanks!

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