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#1 2017-01-11 02:34:54

Ronnie 666
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From: Australia
Registered: 2011-03-16
Posts: 2,384
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Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

I received this by email today: big_smile

1302_rooster.jpg

I will remember the rooster by :

1. Numerous white spots that covered the coins
2. The eyelashes that seemed to be wedged in under the plastic airtites
3. The numerous scratches and scuffs that adorned the coin surface

Something like this mock up of a silver rooster:

1302_2017-yearoftherooster-silv.jpg

The best news is all these extras came free of cost. Finally the very best is when you question the staff you get the standard statement -" its only bullion". So why do I pay a premium over the bar price ?

Perth Mint you are destroying your collector base and annihilating the premiums on older coins.
Instead of sending out silly emails please fix the quality problem - It is worse this year than ever before. But as you have record sales who cares?

How will you Silver Stackers remember the Rooster ? Please post your feelings below


"The Two Most Common Elements in the Universe Are Hydrogen and Stupidity" Frank Zappa

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#2 2017-01-11 02:48:27

STC
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

Didn't buy any, heard they were crap


We are all here because we are not all there.

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#3 2017-01-11 02:53:55

renovator
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

Record sales  is no incentive to change anything . people need to vote with their wallet . Unfortunately ronnie they know people want their stuff & care less about quality its all about quantity now.

To be fair on them they punch out a lot of coins & its a bit hard to QC every coin properly. .


i used to be disgusted now im just amused

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#4 2017-01-11 03:01:53

Ronnie 666
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

renovator wrote:

Record sales  is no incentive to change anything . people need to vote with their wallet . Unfortunately ronnie they know people want their stuff & care less about quality its all about quantity now.

To be fair on them they punch out a lot of coins & its a bit hard to QC every coin properly. .

To be fair I went to the PM and looked through all the 10oz and 1kg Roosters. They had about 30x 10oz and 8x 1kg coins. Every one was damaged. A few bad ones - yes no problem. You can't find a coin free of milk spots, scratches or other issues. Obviously the 1 and 2oz rolls are a time bomb as you can't see the damage until you crack them open. So please sell your PM rolls intact.


"The Two Most Common Elements in the Universe Are Hydrogen and Stupidity" Frank Zappa

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#5 2017-01-11 03:08:54

Soprano16
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

I've got 1 oz, 10oz and 1KG Rooster and they're all mint and perfect

Not surprised that with such massive production duds make their way through to sales, but the fact that PM aren't interested in assisting you with a replacement or refund is pretty disappointing

We're paying up for the coin, the least they can do is ensure we get a mint production. It's easy to buy in person because you can obviously look at it first, but there needs to be some sort of returns policy for online purchases

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#6 2017-01-11 03:17:24

Ronnie 666
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

Soprano16 wrote:

I've got 1 oz, 10oz and 1KG Rooster and they're all mint and perfect

Not surprised that with such massive production duds make their way through to sales, but the fact that PM aren't interested in assisting you with a replacement or refund is pretty disappointing

We're paying up for the coin, the least they can do is ensure we get a mint production. It's easy to buy in person because you can obviously look at it first, but there needs to be some sort of returns policy for online purchases

I doubt they are perfect. Do yourself a favour and get a good torch and shine it at queens head at an angle. Look carefully and you will see cloudy areas especially on the cheek and chin. Those are the earliest stages of milk spots which get darker with the passage of time. Its not for no reason that 90% of PCGS grading is the obverse. The reverse is usually ok  I have gone through at least 50 x 10oz and 20x 1kg coins and have not found 1 free of marks. If I am right post the pictures
Thanks


"The Two Most Common Elements in the Universe Are Hydrogen and Stupidity" Frank Zappa

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#7 2017-01-11 03:22:45

Soprano16
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

Yeah good point - I will have another look later

TBH I def focused more on the Rooster side than Queen, because to me personally that's what I was more interested in

I'll let you know how I go

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#8 2017-01-11 03:23:33

Ipv6Ready
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

If the mint is saying bullion, is less quality control and spotting is expected, that is game set and match. What is there to argue about.

Most buyers of silver coin I gather don't care about it, as record sales indicate vast majority are not going to numi collectors.

At the heart of it, isn't premium on modern coins just manipulation at a different layer for silver.

End of the day PM calls it fabrication/marketing cost.

Why would mint hire extra staff for QA or haven forbid reject a coin because it is mildly flawed, if it is sold at "manipulated" price,


Looking for 40 pre1944 shilling details in the link
http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic- … -worn.html

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#9 2017-01-11 04:57:24

renovator
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

Ipv6Ready wrote:

If the mint is saying bullion, is less quality control and spotting is expected, that is game set and match. What is there to argue about.

Most buyers of silver coin I gather don't care about it, as record sales indicate vast majority are not going to numi collectors.

At the heart of it, isn't premium on modern coins just manipulation at a different layer for silver.

End of the day PM calls it fabrication/marketing cost.

Why would mint hire extra staff for QA or haven forbid reject a coin because it is mildly flawed, if it is sold at "manipulated" price,

Spotting is expected ?. You obviously havent been buying their products long enough to remember PM products they used to sell were excellent quality & milkspots on a PM coin were unheard of .

If they didnt spot im sure they would have exceeded the record number they sold even with the problems. Its a business in the end & record sales are record sales .So if they are selling , production would be foremost on the agenda .

Silver has its good & bad years & they are making hay while the sun shines .
From a business side of things im sure most people would agree. This year could be a slow one . The bad part for them is they wont be sure how much effect the spotting & QC problems had on sales if it is a slow year . If they have another good year i doubt milkspots will go away as people are still buying them regardless.


i used to be disgusted now im just amused

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#10 2017-01-11 06:44:37

Ipv6Ready
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From: North Sydney
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

renovator wrote:
Ipv6Ready wrote:

If the mint is saying bullion, is less quality control and spotting is expected, that is game set and match. What is there to argue about.

Most buyers of silver coin I gather don't care about it, as record sales indicate vast majority are not going to numi collectors.

At the heart of it, isn't premium on modern coins just manipulation at a different layer for silver.

End of the day PM calls it fabrication/marketing cost.

Why would mint hire extra staff for QA or haven forbid reject a coin because it is mildly flawed, if it is sold at "manipulated" price,

Spotting is expected ?. You obviously havent been buying their products long enough to remember PM products they used to sell were excellent quality & milkspots on a PM coin were unheard of .

If they didnt spot im sure they would have exceeded the record number they sold even with the problems. Its a business in the end & record sales are record sales .So if they are selling , production would be foremost on the agenda .

Silver has its good & bad years & they are making hay while the sun shines .
From a business side of things im sure most people would agree. This year could be a slow one . The bad part for them is they wont be sure how much effect the spotting & QC problems had on sales if it is a slow year . If they have another good year i doubt milkspots will go away as people are still buying them regardless.


I am not saying it's expected, it is PM who are hinting milked coins are expected.
This might be new and disappointing development for collectors but if PM policy for bullion is now ok to have milk how can you argue. Sure we can be disappointed.

I have a suspicion like RCM as PM transitions to 9999 just like Maples majority of bullion cons will be milky.

My comment about manipulation is the secondary market premium, ie silver is silver why does a modern koala coin double in price, it's due to collectors manipulating the price.


Looking for 40 pre1944 shilling details in the link
http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic- … -worn.html

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#11 2017-01-11 07:49:01

Clawhammer
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

Its a shitty design anyway. The French roosters, aka Gallic Rooster (aka; le coq gaulois) are a better looking cock... err cockrell... I mean, bird.


Specialisation is for insects

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#12 2017-01-11 08:36:08

Ipv6Ready
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

Clawhammer wrote:

Its a shitty design anyway. The French roosters, aka Gallic Rooster (aka; le coq gaulois) are a better looking cock... err cockrell... I mean, bird.

I agree ☝️ a coin that not many would buy, unless collecting a series.


Looking for 40 pre1944 shilling details in the link
http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic- … -worn.html

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#13 2017-01-11 09:19:01

SpacePete
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

renovator wrote:
Ipv6Ready wrote:

If the mint is saying bullion, is less quality control and spotting is expected, that is game set and match. What is there to argue about.

Most buyers of silver coin I gather don't care about it, as record sales indicate vast majority are not going to numi collectors.

At the heart of it, isn't premium on modern coins just manipulation at a different layer for silver.

End of the day PM calls it fabrication/marketing cost.

Why would mint hire extra staff for QA or haven forbid reject a coin because it is mildly flawed, if it is sold at "manipulated" price,

Spotting is expected ?. You obviously havent been buying their products long enough to remember PM products they used to sell were excellent quality & milkspots on a PM coin were unheard of .

If you haven't worked it out by now, Ipv6Ready has a tendency to pontificate on stuff he has no idea about.


The law's duty is to protect the innocent, not to make them prove their innocence.

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#14 2017-01-11 09:27:57

Ronnie 666
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

I think it's poor show and in the future there are going to be very disappointed SS who find their apparently mint PM coins covered in white spots. Premiums will vanish as will support for the PM.


"The Two Most Common Elements in the Universe Are Hydrogen and Stupidity" Frank Zappa

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#15 2017-01-11 09:50:57

SpacePete
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

Ronnie 666 wrote:

I think it's poor show and in the future there are going to be very disappointed SS who find their apparently mint PM coins covered in white spots. Premiums will vanish as will support for the PM.

And it's a basic issue of quality. With a tube of bullion coins you might get a few tiny dings here and there, but you don't expect massive quality defects with the materials. And with the premium bullion range sold by the mint in capsules, there is a higher quality expectation that matches the advertising and increased premium.


The law's duty is to protect the innocent, not to make them prove their innocence.

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#16 2017-01-11 12:38:47

Gatito Bandito
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

Ronnie 666 wrote:

Do yourself a favour and get a good torch and shine it at queens head at an angle. Look carefully and you will see cloudy areas especially on the cheek and chin. Those are the earliest stages of milk spots which get darker with the passage of time.

Obviously don't see exactly what you're talking about in your case, but I've noticed that from time to time on different kinds of Perth.

I believe that's actually die fatigue -- not pre-milk-spots.


I've never personally had issues with Perth Lunars. Then again, I also don't have gobs & gobs of them, either.

The quality of the Kooks the past couple years, however, is a different story...

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#17 2017-01-11 15:17:46

mmissinglink
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

renovator has the right answer:   "people need to vote with their wallet"

If you (the buyer) are not satisfied with particular (or any) products from the PM (or any mint for that matter) don't buy those products. It's really that simple. I think it's good and fine (and arguably, necessary) to complain to the mint, but ultimately, if their product(s) are not satisfactory to you, don't buy that product(s).

And, I do feel that public forums are a good place to vent and shame mints, dealers, and sellers that are unethical or providing consistently, objective poor business - BUT public forums are the wrong place to shame (or levy blame) that is not the fault of the mint, dealer, or seller. For example, bullion coins are not intended to be blemish-free and are sold as an investment vehicle....not as a collector vehicle. That certain bullion coins in the past have been utilized in the aftermarket as a collectable coin doesn't change the fact that the mint is pricing and selling them as bullion.

If you expect to have reasonably blemish-free silver coins, buy collector coins instead.....but you will have to pay a premium for that extra production and QC cost the mint is putting into collector coins.


Perhaps the most important responsibility for a mint is transparency to its customers. If the mint is claiming that their bullion coins are minted to a standard equal to their collector coins and that their collector coins are produced to be reasonably blemish-free, then they can and should be held to that standard. If they don't claim that, I don't see how bullion coins can be held to some, arguably, unreasonable standard. And if that is not satisfactory to you....don't support the product.


Please don't misunderstand what my position is. I'm not claiming that no one has a right to complain to a mint about blemishes on bullion coins....but just know that the mint has no obligation to oblige your expectations which are based on past production of similar coins or future valuation of these coins.




.


In some ways, we are not that different

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#18 2017-01-11 16:38:10

Sully
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

mmissinglink wrote:

renovator has the right answer:   "people need to vote with their wallet"

If you (the buyer) are not satisfied with particular (or any) products from the PM (or any mint for that matter) don't buy those products. It's really that simple. I think it's good and fine (and arguably, necessary) to complain to the mint, but ultimately, if their product(s) are not satisfactory to you, don't buy that product(s).

And, I do feel that public forums are a good place to vent and shame mints, dealers, and sellers that are unethical or providing consistently, objective poor business - BUT public forums are the wrong place to shame (or levy blame) that is not the fault of the mint, dealer, or seller. For example, bullion coins are not intended to be blemish-free and are sold as an investment vehicle....not as a collector vehicle. That certain bullion coins in the past have been utilized in the aftermarket as a collectable coin doesn't change the fact that the mint is pricing and selling them as bullion.

If you expect to have reasonably blemish-free silver coins, buy collector coins instead.....but you will have to pay a premium for that extra production and QC cost the mint is putting into collector coins.


Perhaps the most important responsibility for a mint is transparency to its customers. If the mint is claiming that their bullion coins are minted to a standard equal to their collector coins and that their collector coins are produced to be reasonably blemish-free, then they can and should be held to that standard. If they don't claim that, I don't see how bullion coins can be held to some, arguably, unreasonable standard. And if that is not satisfactory to you....don't support the product.


Please don't misunderstand what my position is. I'm not claiming that no one has a right to complain to a mint about blemishes on bullion coins....but just know that the mint has no obligation to oblige your expectations which are based on past production of similar coins or future valuation of these coins.




.

Summed up exactly right.
The mints are not obliged to meet our expectations/wishes for perfect bullion coins.
As collectors of bullion, we have set our own standards which were just never meant to be achieved with bullion.
That we did in the past get super quality as standard, was a bonus.

I haven't given up hope that it will eventually return to that. I do believe there must be pride within some mints that'll see a return.
In the meantime, it's good and important we all keep banging on to them about it. We know they can do it, if the will is there.
While i also agree that voting with your wallet is the way, i just can't bring myself to not buy any Perth bullion, at all.
But i have cut back, and in general find little or zero problems with the few i do buy.
So luckily i can at least keep those bullion collections going.

But i did decide to stop completely a couple of years ago with the somalia elephant, for example. Gave up.
I loved the series and would like to continue.
But getting the current issue that year in problem free condition was a real headache, and just not worth going through it each year to try end up with a few good pieces.

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#19 2017-01-11 16:58:11

Ronnie 666
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

Clearly people here do not know what milk spots look like. Here are pictures of coins including a slabbed proof - as they say a picture is worth a thousand words. These are earlier coins and the current ones are much worse. In the second picture the coin looks great until you shine a light on it at an angle. 

1302_koala-2.jpg

1302_queen--1.jpg


I haven't bothered to photograph the current coins - they look worse.

Missinglink this is the perfect forum to shame the mint. I have approached them directly, written to members of staff and have received no reply. I have even questioned one of the production people at a public forum who refused to discuss the issue.


"The Two Most Common Elements in the Universe Are Hydrogen and Stupidity" Frank Zappa

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#20 2017-01-11 17:29:03

Gatito Bandito
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

Okay, *those* are milk-spots in your last pic!


But there's something else, too (die fatigue), that can happen with these, found smack-dab in the middle of the queen side, and can only really be seen when using a flashlight at an angle. Looks different than yours.

Too cheap to properly maintain and/or swap out the dies in a timely manner, in order to save a few bucks.


Just one more thing to worry about re: Perth "quality."

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#21 2017-01-11 18:01:01

SpacePete
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

mmissinglink wrote:

...

  - BUT public forums are the wrong place to shame (or levy blame) that is not the fault of the mint, dealer, or seller. For example, bullion coins are not intended to be blemish-free and are sold as an investment vehicle....not as a collector vehicle. That certain bullion coins in the past have been utilized in the aftermarket as a collectable coin doesn't change the fact that the mint is pricing and selling them as bullion.

Milk spots are very likely an issue with manufacturing so I can't see how it is not valid to discuss the mint as the source of this issue.

No one expects bullion coins to be pristine in most cases.  Minor dings and scratches are perfectly ok. But if you do happen to have a graded pristine bullion coin that goes on to develop milk spots, especial when multiple people start to experience it when it never happened as frequently before, then it's perfectly valid to discuss on a forum.

Let me repeat -- no one expects bullion coins to be pristine in most cases, consistent minor dings and scratches are accepted.


The law's duty is to protect the innocent, not to make them prove their innocence.

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#22 2017-01-11 18:27:14

Ronnie 666
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

What is really disturbing is the PM attitude. Over a year ago the Perth Mint came out with these statements that they were investigating the milk spot problem and had scanning electron micrographs of the spots. They said it was a particulate problem and they were updating their water filters or some other nonsense. We know that milk spots occur early in production with the manufacture of the planchet. People postulate its a detergent or lubricant that is not removed and fixed to the surface during heat drying.

Nothing further was said or done and the problem got worse. Clearly the PM or its staff (I know some on this forum) read these posts. Why dont they respond ? because a response will indicate there is a problem. They will not admit there is a problem, not only on the bullion coins but on all the silver coins including the proof sets. I have a HR proof coin that has milk spots and I have sent it to PCGS for restoration. I did not send it for any monetary gain but to see what they report and do. The longer the PM fail to acknowledge this issue the more customers flee and while sales of bullion are up I get the feeling that coin sales are not. It would be nice to hear some reply from the mint but don't hold your breath.


"The Two Most Common Elements in the Universe Are Hydrogen and Stupidity" Frank Zappa

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#23 2017-01-11 19:11:37

Jislizard
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

Fortunately I haven't come across any as far back as 2012 when I bought all the Dragons, I will go back and have a look anyway.

I gave up collecting series a long time ago, No matter how good the dragons were I can't get excited about chickens, pigs or mice.

I was getting some Perth Mint products as gifts, Kookaburras mostly, but now I have switched to other mints. I no longer buy the rolls of coins as an investment. I did panic and get some Kookaburras because I was after a last minute gift, they are ok at the moment so I can still give them.

I did get the 2016 Perth Mint Kangaroo and the 2015 Perth Mint Kangaroo because of the whole "First in the new series" fiasco surrounding those two coins but the 2016 coins are all stained so although it is a good illustration about how the mint treats its customers it is not a series I have any interest in continuing.

As you say, they are just bullion coins so I will buy them elsewhere and not have the low quality.


Now stacking: World Junk Silver Coins.
Swap your older, worn, dirty fractional silver coins for fiat, .999 rounds or legal tender. 
Individual coins, mixed lots or bulk. 
Not looking for Australian, bent, holed or damaged coins, thanks!

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#24 2017-01-11 19:22:57

Holdfast
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From: Australia
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

Post images of milk-spotted 2017 coins from Perth.

Individual folk have no voice with Perth.

You do have a voice with Dealers but the Dealers have no voice with Perth otherwise their allocations get thrown in the bin.

If The Perth Mint was a listed company, fully owned by shareholders, the CEO would be sacked, as would the Board Of Directors.

Management are supposed to provide outcomes by providing the "means" to fix problems with a particular product (Milk-spotted coins)

Sales would go through the roof if "The Management" at Perth could guarantee decent spot free coins.

Come on CEO of The Perth Mint, show some leadership; allocate the funds to fix the problem on "Your-Shift"!

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#25 2017-01-11 19:29:57

Jislizard
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Re: Perth Mint marketing rather than fixing the problem

I will check my coins, I know some of them have got them and I have some spare time on my hands, not sure how GoldPelican would feel about his forum having a dedicated thread to dissing the Perth Mint but it might at least make them take notice.

I was only buying a roll of Lunars, 2x Koalas and 2 x Kookaburras each year but I was starting to put aside a tube of the 1/2 oz offerings and a tube of anything else that looked like it could be interesting. I have since stopped that but I don't think it has had an impact on Perth Mint.

It has probably had a small barely noticeable impact on GoldStackers where I was buying all my coins, I didn't switch to buying alternatives, I just stopped buying silver coins and switched to low premium silver bars instead but not at the same volume.


Now stacking: World Junk Silver Coins.
Swap your older, worn, dirty fractional silver coins for fiat, .999 rounds or legal tender. 
Individual coins, mixed lots or bulk. 
Not looking for Australian, bent, holed or damaged coins, thanks!

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