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#26 2016-03-03 04:58:33

Skyrocket
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From: Melbourne
Registered: 2014-07-20
Posts: 4,901
Trades :   36 

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

SilverDJ wrote:
Skyrocket wrote:

Always or so far?

Obviously you can't predict the future, but history has shown that leaders do no want their countries destroyed. It would require a true mad man with total control of the launch procedure and the people involved to start it.
North Korea is currently the only such nuclear state that would close to that capability.
If you think Trump, Hillary, Jinping, or Pu has the power to just push a button, then you don't know how the system works.


There is a contradiction there.  First you say "leaders do no want their countries destroyed"  then you finish off with  "If you think Trump, Hillary, Jinping, or Pu has the power to just push a button, then you don't know how the system works."

Are the leaders in control of the countries or others? Example USA, biggest warmonger on the planet.

Imo, all US presidents are puppets to the real powers that always remain the same behind the scene, CIA, military industry complex, banks, ect.  They are the ones that push for war, not presidents that come and go.

Maybe you don't know how the system works?

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#27 2016-03-03 05:26:18

SilverDJ
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
Posts: 2,528

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

Skyrocket wrote:

There is a contradiction there.  First you say "leaders do no want their countries destroyed"  then you finish off with  "If you think Trump, Hillary, Jinping, or Pu has the power to just push a button, then you don't know how the system works."

It's two separate points.
The button pushing comment is making the point that even if a true mad man was in charge, they can't just a push a button, it doesn't work like that, in all cases except perhaps North Korea.

Example USA, biggest warmonger on the planet.

No argument there.
Use of nukes since WWII? Zero, not even close.
Arguably the Cuban missle crisis was maybe "close", but even then their plan was to bomb the shit of them conventionally which would come with some degree of counter-launch risk, when they could have just nuked them and had zero counter risk (at least from the Cuban island). That option wasn't even on the table.

Imo, all US presidents are puppets to the real powers that always remain the same behind the scene, CIA, military industry complex, banks, ect.  They are the ones that push for war, not presidents that come and go.

There is a huge, massive, fundamental difference between the conventional wars the US rage every day, and nuclear war. If you think they are the same, and driven by the same policies and agendas then you have no clue at all.
This is why there has never been a direct war between any two nuclear powers in history. The same will remain true for this China Sea dispute.

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#28 2016-03-03 05:39:38

Skyrocket
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From: Melbourne
Registered: 2014-07-20
Posts: 4,901
Trades :   36 

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

You talk here and in your other post like you know there never will be a nuclear war saying - "Cooler heads always prevail."

These warmongers should never be trusted to NOT start a nuclear world war. Things can also escalate and get out of hand and a nuclear war is started.  The same warmongers that always push for these wars also have their secret underground nuclear bunkers to flee too. We don't.  Do not put your trust or faith in them not to start a nuclear war.

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#29 2016-03-03 05:51:19

alor
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From: Pulau Alor ;)
Registered: 2011-06-16
Posts: 4,541
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Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

SilverDJ wrote:
Skyrocket wrote:

There is a contradiction there.  First you say "leaders do no want their countries destroyed"  then you finish off with  "If you think Trump, Hillary, Jinping, or Pu has the power to just push a button, then you don't know how the system works."

It's two separate points.
The button pushing comment is making the point that even if a true mad man was in charge, they can't just a push a button, it doesn't work like that, in all cases except perhaps North Korea.

Example USA, biggest warmonger on the planet.

No argument there.
Use of nukes since WWII? Zero, not even close.
Arguably the Cuban missle crisis was maybe "close", but even then their plan was to bomb the shit of them conventionally which would come with some degree of counter-launch risk, when they could have just nuked them and had zero counter risk (at least from the Cuban island). That option wasn't even on the table.

Imo, all US presidents are puppets to the real powers that always remain the same behind the scene, CIA, military industry complex, banks, ect.  They are the ones that push for war, not presidents that come and go.

There is a huge, massive, fundamental difference between the conventional wars the US rage every day, and nuclear war. If you think they are the same, and driven by the same policies and agendas then you have no clue at all.
This is why there has never been a direct war between any two nuclear powers in history. The same will remain true for this China Sea dispute.

There was a war head placed in Turkey Izmir by the US at the time, hence the Soviet Response with the Cuban missiles. The US agreed to quietly removed those in Izmir and Soviet moved theirs away from Cuba.
So we were sold that it was the Soviet who provoked, but it was actually US that moved the Nuke closer to target Moscow.

Now we have THAAD going to South Korea, China will respond, maybe what we saw in the South China Sea were that response.


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#30 2016-03-03 06:08:25

SilverDJ
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
Posts: 2,528

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

Skyrocket wrote:

You talk here and in your other post like you know there never will be a nuclear war saying - "Cooler heads always prevail."
These warmongers should never be trusted to NOT start a nuclear world war. Things can also escalate and get out of hand and a nuclear war is started.  The same warmongers that always push for these wars also have their secret underground nuclear bunkers to flee too. We don't.  Do not put your trust or faith in them not to start a nuclear war.

I know that very well. I'm a huge advocate for the elimination of nuclear weapons.
I'm just saying that nuclear war is massively less likely than people think, same with a direct war between two nuclear powers. People think the US and China will just "go to war", it's laughable at the worst of times. The odds of war happening are incredibly low, yet people like to talk like it's imminent. Likely because they are clueless of how the posturing game is played between nuclear powers.
But I still think nuclear weapons are the greatest threat posed to the human race, which is why I want nothing short complete abolishment. It was achievable too if Regan hadn't been such an idiot.

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#31 2016-03-03 06:13:11

SilverDJ
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
Posts: 2,528

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

alor wrote:

There was a war head placed in Turkey Izmir by the US at the time, hence the Soviet Response with the Cuban missiles. The US agreed to quietly removed those in Izmir and Soviet moved theirs away from Cuba.
So we were sold that it was the Soviet who provoked, but it was actually US that moved the Nuke closer to target Moscow.

Not strictly true, it was NATO, not a unilateral US decision. And they didn't sneak them in and lie about it.

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#32 2016-03-03 06:14:48

SilverDJ
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
Posts: 2,528

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

alor wrote:

Now we have THAAD going to South Korea, China will respond, maybe what we saw in the South China Sea were that response.

THAAD is a defensive system. It doesn't even have a warhead.

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#33 2016-03-03 06:46:34

SpacePete
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Registered: 2014-03-01
Posts: 13,437
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Website

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

SilverDJ wrote:

Use of nukes since WWII? Zero, not even close.
Arguably the Cuban missle crisis was maybe "close", but even then their plan was to bomb the shit of them conventionally which would come with some degree of counter-launch risk, when they could have just nuked them and had zero counter risk (at least from the Cuban island). That option wasn't even on the table.

You are missing some GIGANTIC historic events.  Several times we have been right on the brink of actual nuclear anialation, not intentionally but by accident due to system errors and mistakes. This is the real risk with increasing build up of increasingly complex weapons systems on hair trigger alert -- war by accident, not intent.

Plenty of details on the internet covering all the close calls and the reasons. We really have been minute away from global nuclear war many times.

E.g http://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear-weapons/h … tgVaPA8ah8


And a lighthearted look at the state of things:


Catus amat piscem, sed non vult tingere plantas

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#34 2016-03-03 07:40:13

errol43
Silver Stacker
From: Bundaberg
Registered: 2010-04-13
Posts: 6,330
Trades :   

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

Anyone notice how the US HAS CHANGED COURSE with regard to Flying in the war corridor of Syria.  Maybe the KHIBINY Russian defence has something to do with it.?

Hope the F35 and the new subs can cope.  Well we will soon  with the subs and who know by 2035 the war may well be come and gone. smile

Regards Errol 43

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#35 2016-03-03 07:58:08

SilverDJ
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
Posts: 2,528

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

SilverPete wrote:

You are missing some GIGANTIC historic events.  Several times we have been right on the brink of actual nuclear anialation, not intentionally but by accident due to system errors and mistakes. This is the real risk with increasing build up of increasingly complex weapons systems on hair trigger alert -- war by accident, not intent.

I'm fully aware of those events, in great detail actually, and I was not discussing those.
Like Kennedy said in the video I posted:

Today, every inhabitant of this planet must contemplate the day when this planet may no longer be habitable. Every man, woman and child lives under a nuclear sword of Damocles, hanging by the slenderest of threads, capable of being cut at any moment by accident or miscalculation or by madness. The weapons of war must be abolished before they abolish us.

I'd still put accident at #1 on the list of most likely.

Last edited by SilverDJ (2016-03-03 08:15:15)

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#36 2016-03-03 09:41:04

Ipv6Ready
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From: North Sydney
Registered: 2016-01-08
Posts: 2,261
Trades :   39 

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

So in what scenario will either Chinese or American president press the button.

1. When two navy is 40km apart?
2. When one navy "trespasses" into ones disputed territorial waters?
3. When two navy carriers jets plays chicken with each other?
4. When a squadron of fighters playing chicken accidentally excalates to losing a plane each?
5. When two navy comes close rescuing the downed pilots?
6. When in the tension of rescue two frigates collide?
7. When Americans sends in the aircraft carrier closer for support?

If Chinese president presses the button, will he be shooting a tactical war head into claimed territorial waters or will he go MAD?

Will an American president presses the button knowing targeting either mainland or the disputed waters will be MAD?

Last edited by Ipv6Ready (2016-03-03 09:42:22)


WTB 4 to 6 grams of pure gold. Don't care if it is coin, bar or granules. Near spot, suits anyone who has been tempted to open a certicard or just have some granules to make a ring

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#37 2016-03-03 11:35:11

motorbikez
Silver Stacker
From: United Kingdom
Registered: 2013-07-27
Posts: 790
Trades :   27 

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

Skyrocket wrote:
SilverDJ wrote:
Skyrocket wrote:

Always or so far?

Obviously you can't predict the future, but history has shown that leaders do no want their countries destroyed. It would require a true mad man with total control of the launch procedure and the people involved to start it.
North Korea is currently the only such nuclear state that would close to that capability.
If you think Trump, Hillary, Jinping, or Pu has the power to just push a button, then you don't know how the system works.


USA, biggest warmonger on the planet.

You are not wrong there, I am getting sick & tired of Obama stirring things up in Russia/Ukraine & the middle east. What really makes me laugh is if you don't know already. The UK has a vote to stay in or leave the EU. Now Obama is sticking his nose in saying he doesn't want the UK to leave the EU.

I bet he doesn't ,as the US is the biggest war monger on the planet closely  followed by us in the UK ( the UK has been at war with someone continuously every year since 1914), of course if there was a serious kick off in Europe with Russia guess which countries military would be on the front line, clue not the US. Europe would be devastated.

The big difference this time is the  so called enemies of the US have nuclear weapons & will be prepared to use them, so previous wars that have not touched US soil or affected their civilian population will this time should things escalate badly.

I hope the US citizens get a leash on their government because as per usual Obama & his cronies will be alright in any war make no mistake about that.


The problem with common sense is, its not that common.

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#38 2016-03-03 12:17:31

systematic
Member
Registered: 2010-06-06
Posts: 6,423
Trades :   

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

The UK is "in" the EU ... but kept the pound as its currency and is not in the euro ...


if everyone is thinking the same, we aren't thinking very much ...

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#39 2016-03-03 13:35:19

motorbikez
Silver Stacker
From: United Kingdom
Registered: 2013-07-27
Posts: 790
Trades :   27 

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

systematic wrote:

The UK is "in" the EU ... but kept the pound as its currency and is not in the euro ...

LOL I think I know that, I live in the UK.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po … 08151.html

Last edited by motorbikez (2016-03-03 13:37:42)


The problem with common sense is, its not that common.

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#40 2016-03-05 08:12:59

alor
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From: Pulau Alor ;)
Registered: 2011-06-16
Posts: 4,541
Trades :   39 

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/m … -sanctions

The Philippines has impounded a North Korean vessel under tough new United Nations sanctions introduced in response to Pyongyang's recent nuclear and ballistic missile tests.

The 6,830-tonne cargo ship Jin Teng will not be allowed to leave Subic port, north-east of the capital Manila, where it had been docked for three days and its crew will be deported, presidential spokesman Manolo Quezon said on state-run radio station Radyo ng Bayan on Saturday.

North Korean threats against the US: how worried should you be?
Katharine HS Moon
Read more
It was the first reported case of the sanctions – the toughest to date, which were adopted late on Wednesday by the UN security council – being enforced.

"The world is concerned over North Korea's nuclear weapons program and as a member of the UN, the Philippines has to do its part to enforce the sanctions," Quezon said.

A team from the UN is expected to inspect the ship in the port, located near a former United States naval base, foreign affairs spokesman Charles Jose said.

The Jin Teng was inspected for the second time on Saturday, this time using electronic weapons sensors, coastguard spokesman commander Armand Balilo said , adding the 21 crewmen were "very cooperative".

North Korea has no embassy in the Philippines. Its embassies in Thailand and Indonesia were unavailable for comment.

There are no other North Korean ships docked in Subic, according to the coastguard.

The Jin Teng, carrying palm kernels, arrived in Subic from Palembang, Indonesia on Thursday afternoon, just hours after the latest sanctions were unanimously passed.

In response to the UN's move, Pyongyang fired six short-range missiles into the sea on Thursday, whileleader Kim Jong-Un ordered its nuclear arsenal to be put on standby for pre-emptive use at any time.

On Friday, the European Union also tightened sanctions against North Korea by adding 16 individuals and 12 entities to a list of some 60 individuals and groups who were hit with travel bans and asset freezes.
.

Had the ship use one of the port in South China Sea, this would not have happened, poor terrorists palm kernels lol


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#41 2016-03-05 08:26:42

alor
Silver Stacker
From: Pulau Alor ;)
Registered: 2011-06-16
Posts: 4,541
Trades :   39 

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

motorbikez wrote:
Skyrocket wrote:
SilverDJ wrote:

Obviously you can't predict the future, but history has shown that leaders do no want their countries destroyed. It would require a true mad man with total control of the launch procedure and the people involved to start it.
North Korea is currently the only such nuclear state that would close to that capability.
If you think Trump, Hillary, Jinping, or Pu has the power to just push a button, then you don't know how the system works.


USA, biggest warmonger on the planet.

You are not wrong there, I am getting sick & tired of Obama stirring things up in Russia/Ukraine & the middle east. What really makes me laugh is if you don't know already. The UK has a vote to stay in or leave the EU. Now Obama is sticking his nose in saying he doesn't want the UK to leave the EU.

I bet he doesn't ,as the US is the biggest war monger on the planet closely  followed by us in the UK ( the UK has been at war with someone continuously every year since 1914), of course if there was a serious kick off in Europe with Russia guess which countries military would be on the front line, clue not the US. Europe would be devastated.

The big difference this time is the  so called enemies of the US have nuclear weapons & will be prepared to use them, so previous wars that have not touched US soil or affected their civilian population will this time should things escalate badly.

I hope the US citizens get a leash on their government because as per usual Obama & his cronies will be alright in any war make no mistake about that.

Crimea was not part of Ukraine under the Soviet time, and magically the Jewery dictate to park it with Ukraine, so that when Soviet were to be broken up, Russia would automatically lost Crimea.

The decree was first announced, on the front page of Pravda, on 27 February 1954.[3] The full text of the decree was:[4]

"Decree of the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet transferring the Crimea Province from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR.

Taking into account the integral character of the economy, the territorial proximity and the close economic and cultural ties between the Crimea Province and the Ukrainian SSR, the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet decrees:

To approve the joint presentation of the Presidium of the Russian SFSR Supreme Soviet and the Presidium of the Ukrainian SSR Supreme Soviet on the transfer of the Crimea Province from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR."
Uncertainty of legitimacy[edit]
The question should have been submitted to the open discussion of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian SFSR. Moreover, a referendum should have been conducted to find out the opinion of the residents of the two republics. Neither of these happened. The Presidium of the Supreme Council gathered for a session on February 19, 1954 - only 13 of 27 members were present. There was no quorum, but the decision was adopted unanimously.[5]

the coincidence of familiarity with the FED of the USA 1913, because the planner were all along Jewery  lol


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#42 2016-03-10 02:33:38

lucky luke
Member
From: Qld
Registered: 2011-05-15
Posts: 1,907
Trades :   17 

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

SilverDJ wrote:

I'd still put accident at #1 on the list of most likely.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-south … SKCN0WB05Q


In the world of perception management "Beliefs are stronger than facts".

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#43 2016-03-10 04:10:13

SilverDJ
Member
From: Australia
Registered: 2014-11-01
Posts: 2,528

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

lucky luke wrote:
SilverDJ wrote:

I'd still put accident at #1 on the list of most likely.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-south … SKCN0WB05Q

That would not include nukes.
Nuclear capable bombers do not all have nuclear weapons, in fact most don't carry them. Basing nuclear weapons in Australia would be an entirely different scenario, and there would be very little purpose to actually do so.
BTW, the B-1 is no longer a nuclear capable aircraft.

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#44 2016-03-10 04:11:38

alor
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From: Pulau Alor ;)
Registered: 2011-06-16
Posts: 4,541
Trades :   39 

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

this will attract more subs like magnet, form North Korea and then China and Russia and India etc

since it is a target need to be neutered 

Indonesia would station more THAAD like on Alor facing Darwin ~~


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#45 2016-03-11 07:52:17

alor
Silver Stacker
From: Pulau Alor ;)
Registered: 2011-06-16
Posts: 4,541
Trades :   39 

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

N. Korean nuclear issue should not be pretext for America to deploy air defenses in region – Lavrov

http://www.rt.com/news/335211-north-kor … sia-china/

"We stand firmly against the deployment of the [American] THAAD missile defense system to South Korea under the pretext of the nuclear problem of the Korean Peninsula," the Chinese FM said. "We believe this to be directly damaging to Russian and Chinese strategic [national] security," Wang Yi emphasized.

Both Moscow and Beijing have mutually confirmed to consistently support nuclear non-proliferation regime and "non-recognition of Pyongyang's nuclear ambitions," Lavrov stressed.


Hear Say See -> N o t h i n g
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#46 2016-03-11 18:49:39

lucky luke
Member
From: Qld
Registered: 2011-05-15
Posts: 1,907
Trades :   17 

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

SilverDJ wrote:
lucky luke wrote:
SilverDJ wrote:

I'd still put accident at #1 on the list of most likely.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-south … SKCN0WB05Q

That would not include nukes.
Nuclear capable bombers do not all have nuclear weapons, in fact most don't carry them. Basing nuclear weapons in Australia would be an entirely different scenario, and there would be very little purpose to actually do so.
BTW, the B-1 is no longer a nuclear capable aircraft.

smile........ BS.


In the world of perception management "Beliefs are stronger than facts".

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#47 2016-05-05 12:01:58

alor
Silver Stacker
From: Pulau Alor ;)
Registered: 2011-06-16
Posts: 4,541
Trades :   39 

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

https://www.rt.com/news/341903-russia-c … le-drills/

Russia, China to hold anti-missile drill as US mulls radar deployment in S. Korea

The Chinese and Russian military are to hold first-ever joint exercise on how to counter an "incidental or provocative" missile attack. It comes as the US and South Korea are discussing the deployment of advanced THAAD missile interceptors in Asia.


Hear Say See -> N o t h i n g
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#48 2017-03-17 11:00:53

alor
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From: Pulau Alor ;)
Registered: 2011-06-16
Posts: 4,541
Trades :   39 

Re: China pushing for war, and they may get it

U.S Deployed Upgraded Patriot Missile Defense System To Osan Air Base, South Korea

Defensive All Rights


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