Silver Stackers logo

Silver Stackers

Discussion forum for those
who love to stack precious metals

You are not logged in.

Announcement

Forum registration is open.

#351 2016-06-09 02:38:18

bordsilver
Silver Stacker
From: The rocks
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 9,596
Trades :   36 

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

Newtosilver wrote:

As for stagnation my super went up 16 percent last year smile The crash in 2008 would have been a lot worse if not for what regulation was left. Without financial regulation you would have a depression, bankers seem to do what is going to line their own pockets in the short term but do not seem to have much concern if it causes a crash.

Ah, but without regulation (especially the ability to manipulate money supply via Government laws) the banks (especially Fannie and Freddie and the Fed) would never have been able to have the impact they did in a free market. I tentatively agree that other regulations/government intervention possibly limited the depth of the crash once it was happening, but then again we all saw the bailouts that privatised the benefits to the bankers and socialised the losses even more and I reckon that is completely immoral.


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

Offline

#352 2016-06-09 02:41:21

Oldsoul
Member
From: Aghartha
Registered: 2014-06-11
Posts: 1,187
Trades :   

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

Newtosilver wrote:
Oldsoul wrote:
Newtosilver wrote:

Black markets are not free markets, prices are inflated, drugs for example, the govt siezes goods (drugs for example), siezes assets and cash, j jails people etc all that has an effect on trade. If you do for arguments sale say it is a free market look at how monopolies form, Mexico has 2 large cartels that control of the drugs trade. Tens of thousands have been killed, private armies have been formed. Certain cities such as Ciudad Juarez are no go zones, people are killed on a daily basis then you have the bystanders who are killed. Same thing happens in a lot of other countries in the Americas. In that market violace, intimidation, shootings etc are common place.

If a black market is the best you can do in regards to being a free market it is a pretty sad state of affairs.

Tell me how that is different to for example oil or geopolitical conquest to support arms exports, except with government funding we get bigger and worse wars.

You may also want to look at the opium wars and what happens when a government does drugs. Are you aware of who Gary Webb was or that the Zeta drug cartel stared out as a government special forces unit? The glorious hand of the state wisely spending tax?

How about you tell me why all countries have a black market cash economy for everything from plumbing to second hand goods. Tll me what would happen if it did not actually exist.

Above all explain to me why with statist institutions at their most extended why the global economy has limped from crisis to crisis and into stagnation for the last ten years.

Elaborate on why the USSR had meat rationing in the 80s. Please explain.

It is a given black markets will always exist, I know what happened with the British and opium. As for stagnation my super went up 16 percent last year smile The crash in 2008 would have been a lot worse if not for what regulation was left. Without financial regulation you would have a depression, bankers seem to do what is going to line their own pockets in the short term but do not seem to have much concern if it causes a crash.


As for meat rationing in the USSR why don't you tell me


You don't see any link between the property crash and legislation passed to force lenders to supply the subprime market or indeed the effect of interest rate manipulation to first inflate markets and then crash them in 1999?

What makes you think the 2008 crash is over or in fact that any of the underlying causes have been resolved via regulation, which further distorts free markets resulting in false price discovery and further shortage and waste and a continuing deepening cycle of crisis. 



How about the great merits of the state as an instrument in facilitating  genocide ?.


As regards meat rationing ...the failure of command economics the ultimate expression of statism.

Last edited by Oldsoul (2016-06-09 02:44:39)


"I will show you fear in a handful of dust." t.s. eliot

Offline

The following 2 users say thank you for this post: bordsilver, mmm....shiney!

#353 2016-06-09 02:44:20

bordsilver
Silver Stacker
From: The rocks
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 9,596
Trades :   36 

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

Newtosilver wrote:

Froma libertarian website saying black markets are not free markets.

"White and red markets contribute (both directly and indirectly) to violence, while black and gray markets contribute directly to freedom (when carried out through peaceful exchange). Many black market entities do in fact use violence, like cartels and gangs; in these capacities they are operating like a state in a red market. As these gangs rise in opposition to state monopolies, their positions of power are often largely attributable to the state's criminalization of the goods and services they deal in. It is the state's criminalization which allows black market actors to charge a higher price for distribution. Often, especially in the case of cartels, they do not operate within a free market, but in fact in a highly regulated one. They sometimes play a pivotal role in the continued regulation of these markets using violence against would-be competitors."

You posted this while I was typing my response. I think my response addresses the nuances of this more.


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

Offline

#354 2016-06-09 03:00:15

Oldsoul
Member
From: Aghartha
Registered: 2014-06-11
Posts: 1,187
Trades :   

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

Are we all going to heaven in a socialist boat rowed by technocrats again?

Good thread. Apologies for the weak contribution. Mill and Gladstone deserve better advocacy than I can muster right now. Hopefully it is still here at a more opportune time.


"I will show you fear in a handful of dust." t.s. eliot

Offline

#355 2016-06-09 04:12:30

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 15,951
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

Oldsoul wrote:

Good thread. Apologies for the weak contribution. Mill and Gladstone deserve better advocacy than I can muster right now. Hopefully it is still here at a more opportune time.

You've done well Oldsoul, especially with the importance of the Classical Liberals in shaping the early formation of modern Western countries.

Nice to hear another angle on it instead of the usual stuff from that Almost Bordering on Trolling Reverand (sic), the Satanist and the handful of others here who champion liberty.  smile


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

Offline

#356 2016-06-09 04:24:45

Newtosilver
Silver Stacker
From: QLD
Registered: 2012-07-05
Posts: 1,731
Trades :   42 

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

mmm....shiney! wrote:
Oldsoul wrote:

Good thread. Apologies for the weak contribution. Mill and Gladstone deserve better advocacy than I can muster right now. Hopefully it is still here at a more opportune time.

You've done well Oldsoul, especially with the importance of the Classical Liberals in shaping the early formation of modern Western countries.

Nice to hear another angle on it instead of the usual stuff from that Almost Bordering on Trolling Reverand (sic), the Satanist and the handful of others here who champion liberty.  smile

Champion liberty lol, sounds very evengelical reverand.


"Never go into a deal believing the other side will treat you fairly. That doesn't mean you screw people just that you expect them to do that to you and then you will never be disappointed."

Offline

#357 2016-06-09 07:22:13

BuggedOut
Member
From: New South Wales
Registered: 2015-07-21
Posts: 1,777
Trades :   37 

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

Big A.D. wrote:

So basically politicize every aspect of the public service?

Part of the problem over the last 30 years has been exactly that - everything becoming more and more politicized and everyone starting to think in terms of three year election cycles.

The public service is already heavily politicized.  I worked in a government department for 6 years and while I was promoted multiple times because I found it easy to excel in comparison to private sector, the higher I got the more I saw the politics compromise and corrupt the best intentions of public servants.

It works exactly as you describe.  We had a new "boss" come in (politically appointed) and basically set priorities for projects and functions that would make the minister for our agency look good (handing out shiny things, cutting ribbons etc).  In exchange the minister would look favorably on the agency to grant additional funding and such "favor" would then flow down through the ranks and thus the entire agency was politicized.  At the end of the day I left because (among other things) I felt my integrity was compromised.  Our job was not to be a servant of the public and work in the publics interest, but instead we worked for the minister and to make him look good so that we could get funding to build our empires.

It's one of the reasons why I am so anti-government now.  If we had a system of voting via our tax dollars for where our money was allocated....I don't think it'd change a lot.  We'd just cut out the middle-men politicians and save a bunch of dollars.

Last edited by BuggedOut (2016-06-09 07:45:20)

Offline

#358 2016-06-09 07:30:18

BuggedOut
Member
From: New South Wales
Registered: 2015-07-21
Posts: 1,777
Trades :   37 

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

As far as defining what "Public Good" is, it's just too vague a concept to be able to nail down.

Instead, consider what are the essential roles of government (eg, police, military, infrastructure) and how much does that cost.  Then figure out how that amount can be taxed fairly and stay so low to the left of the "Laffer Curve" that prosperity and growth are maximized.  THAT has got to be good for the public, surely?

The way politicians think now is how much can be taxed (via tools like the Laffer Curve) and then figure out what they can spend it on.  It's ar$e about!

Offline

The following user says thank you for this post: bordsilver

#359 2016-06-09 16:03:48

bordsilver
Silver Stacker
From: The rocks
Registered: 2012-05-23
Posts: 9,596
Trades :   36 

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

^ And the military industrial complex needs to be how big?


The only good tax is a repealed tax.

Offline

The following user says thank you for this post: mmm....shiney!

#360 2016-06-09 17:44:24

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 15,951
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

^ Does the Laffer Curve tell us whether the NBN should be FTTN or FTTP?


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

Offline

#361 2016-06-09 18:56:59

BuggedOut
Member
From: New South Wales
Registered: 2015-07-21
Posts: 1,777
Trades :   37 

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

bordsilver wrote:

^ And the military industrial complex needs to be how big?

Independent risk assessment to determine size, type and likelihood of foreign threat. (Actuaries?) then conventional risk reduction and mitigation strategy development and implementation which includes expansion/update of military.  If risk changes then that can flow through.

It's a bit trickier than standard insurance company processes, but instead of just putting this kind of risk in the too hard basket (like insurance companies do) actually put the work in to figure it out.

Offline

#362 2016-06-09 18:59:52

BuggedOut
Member
From: New South Wales
Registered: 2015-07-21
Posts: 1,777
Trades :   37 

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

mmm....shiney! wrote:

^ Does the Laffer Curve tell us whether the NBN should be FTTN or FTTP?

I'm surprised at you shiney.  Would have thought you'd have NBN as a private enterprise issue. wink

But my answer is similar.  Independent experts to do effective cost/benefit analysis and go from there.

Plenty of hard problems to solve, but we've got more chance of solving them if we don't have career politicians involved.

Offline

#363 2016-06-09 19:48:46

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 15,951
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

The cost/benefit calculations would involve trading off efficiencies, coverage, technologies, expenditure, etc. These sound like free market decisions, except, profit is not the key outcome. It would be impossible to avoid politicising these decisions whilst public money is being used. Same goes for all infrastructure projects.


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

Offline

#364 2016-06-09 19:54:24

BuggedOut
Member
From: New South Wales
Registered: 2015-07-21
Posts: 1,777
Trades :   37 

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

There has to be some level of politics otherwise there is no voting and you basically have an undemocratic setup.  But that doesn't mean you couldn't have a tender process, voters electing where tax dollars are spent or some other form of crowd funding type mechanism to decide which way it goes.

Offline

The following user says thank you for this post: mmm....shiney!

#365 2016-06-09 20:33:25

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 15,951
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

BuggedOut wrote:

There has to be some level of politics otherwise there is no voting and you basically have an undemocratic setup.  But that doesn't mean you couldn't have a tender process, voters electing where tax dollars are spent or some other form of crowd funding type mechanism to decide which way it goes.

I'm not trying to poo poo your ideas, they have merit, but any decision making process around public expenditure infrastructure is always going to end up with winners ie those that get the infrastructure, and losers those that still fund it but miss out, regardless if a committee or a majority of voters make a decision. Therefore, it is impossible to say that the public good has been maximised because in reality all that has been maximised is the resources for some at the expense of others.

The public good is a myth.  smile

Last edited by mmm....shiney! (2016-06-09 20:33:57)


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

Offline

#366 2016-10-10 17:08:56

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 15,951
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

lol war of words:

Coal Miner's CEO Calls Tesla a 'Fraud' and Elon Musk Tweets It

The head of the biggest privately owned U.S. coal producer on Monday called electric-car maker Tesla Motors Inc. a "fraud" for failing to turn a profit despite subsidies.

Elon Musk, the billionaire chief executive officer of Tesla, fired back at Murray Energy Corp. CEO Robert Murray within hours on Twitter.

In his post, Musk said Tesla gets "pennies" on the dollar in subsidies compared with the coal industry, and that climate science denial is the "real fraud."

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/ … -tweets-it


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

Offline

#367 2016-10-11 07:41:40

KiwiGreg
Member
From: Brisbane
Registered: 2015-04-25
Posts: 51
Trades :   

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

Is anybody on the forum using a Powerwall or similar storage system? Any real life cost analysis calcs?

Offline

#368 2016-10-29 10:25:16

aleks
Silver Stacker
From: Karl-Marx-Allee
Registered: 2010-10-14
Posts: 2,392
Trades :   27 

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

Elon Musk unveils his latest scam, solar roof tiles and version 2 of the home/utility batteries

Last edited by aleks (2016-10-29 10:39:03)


Only you have your best financial interest at heart, be your own guru

Offline

#369 2016-10-29 20:22:59

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 15,951
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

Good on him. Will Goldman be buying shares from him using Fed money?


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

Offline

#370 2017-01-26 21:16:49

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 15,951
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

Musk the crony-capitalist?

Tesla Motors Inc. founder Elon Musk is pressing the Trump administration to adopt a tax on carbon emissions, raising the issue directly with President Donald Trump and U.S. business leaders at a White House meeting Monday regarding manufacturing.

A senior White House official said Musk floated the idea of a carbon tax at the meeting but got little or no support among the executives at the White House, signaling that Trump's conservative political orbit remains tepid on the issue.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/arti … trump-ceos


Musk serves on the president's economic advisory board and regularly meets with either Trump or his top aides.
He was one of a dozen chief executive officers who met with Trump at the White House on Monday to talk manufacturing, taxes and trade.

"Elon Musk has an important line of communication to Donald Trump," Morgan Stanley analyst Adam Jonas wrote in a note last week as he raised his price target to $305 from $242. "This strategic relationship between Tesla leadership and the new administration is an important development."

For a story on Musk raising idea of a carbon tax with Trump, click here

Tesla slipped less than 1 percent to $252.20 at 12:48 p.m. Thursday, about $7 above analysts' average price target. The 52-week closing high of $265.42 was set April 6.

Analysts remain split on Tesla's prospects -- eight call it a buy, 10 a hold, and six a sell -- as Musk works to transform it from a niche seller of high-priced electric vehicles into high-volume manufacturer making 500,000 autos annually in 2018. Fourth-quarter deliveries fell short of its own forecasts, and the company has a history of setting aggressive deadlines and missing them due to production delays. Tesla sold just 76,230 vehicles in 2016, below the 80,000 to 90,000 it had originally targeted. Meanwhile, the factory in Fremont is still being retooled for the Model 3.

Musk, 45, and Trump, 70, may seem an odd pair. Before the election, the South Africa-born entrepreneur said on CNBC that Trump "doesn't seem to have the sort of character that reflects well" on the U.S. and urged people to revolt and fight the "propaganda" of the fossil fuel industry. Trump has chosen former Exxon Mobil Corp. Chief Executive Officer Rex Tillerson to be his secretary of state and Scott Pruitt, an ally of the oil and gas industry, to lead the Environmental Protection Agency.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles … -for-tesla


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

Offline

#371 2017-01-26 21:19:55

Jislizard
Silver Stacker
From: Australia
Registered: 2011-04-07
Posts: 7,472
Trades :   57 

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

Why would you need a tax on carbon emissions if global warming is not real?


Now stacking: World Junk Silver Coins.
Swap your older, worn, dirty fractional silver coins for fiat, .999 rounds or legal tender. 
Individual coins, mixed lots or bulk. 
Not looking for Australian, bent, holed or damaged coins, thanks!

Offline

#372 2017-01-28 15:29:40

Pirocco
Member
From: EUSSR
Registered: 2011-05-24
Posts: 4,831
Trades :   
Website

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

There's a prominent politician here that last week got an article written about him, he replaced his pure electrical car with a electrical+oil engined one, motivation being lack of radius.
More general, here politicians intend to abandon nuclear power plants, and in recent years they wrote entire plans/schemes for situations with lack of electrical power (being switching off selected streets).
Now imagine an entire transportation energy demand, adding to electricity demand.
It's a ridiculous contradiction, yet it's like completely outside the scope of their political correctness.


Silver won't save you if you act as clueless and careless as with your bank account.
Get in- not disinformed. Last is easiest, visit www.zerohedge.com & Co and hurry to their bullion shops.
Futures: http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic- … ilver.html #9
Central Banks inflict you less gold and fiat: http://forums.silverstackers.com/topic- … tners.html #19

Offline

#373 2017-01-29 17:17:22

mmm....shiney!
Silver Stacker
From: 昆士蘭
Registered: 2010-11-15
Posts: 15,951
Trades :   102 
Website

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

Time to remind readers why the government's support of Musk and other energy innovators is just plain bad economics, a misuse of taxpayer funds and in some cases "blatant corporate welfare".

At House hearings in May 2012 on the DOE's green business subsidies, the industry witnesses were generally in favor. But James Nelson of Solar3D (now Sunworks) testified on the negative effects of the subsidies:

    Firms that receive subsidies become spendthrift. Nelson contrasted his firm's lean operations with Solyndra's spendthrift ways. He noted that the "most powerful driver in our industry is the relentless reduction in cost." But government subsidies tend to inflate costs.

    Subsidies are not driven by market demands. Nelson noted that U.S. adoption of solar energy at the time lagged behind some other nations. But "this should not bother us if it means that the other countries are investing in technology that is not economically viable." Put another way, just because other countries may be misallocating resources, does not mean that we should also.

    Subsidies distort business decisions. Nelson noted that "giving companies money to set up manufacturing in the U.S. may doom them to failure by financing them into a strategically uncompetitive position." If subsidies induce U.S. firms to set up production in higher-cost places, it will ultimately disadvantage them in the global marketplace.

    Venture capitalists have already funded the best projects, leaving the dogs for the government. If venture capitalists "reject a project, it is difficult to believe that the government could do a better job of picking a winner," argued Nelson.

When the government hands out money, businesses with weak ideas get in line because the businesses with good ideas can get private funding and do not want the bureaucratic hassles of government aid. An economist once quipped, "I don't know whether the government is better at picking winners rather than losers, but I do know that losers are good at picking governments."

The DOE's business subsidies should be ended. Wealthy investors and corporations have shown great interest in funding new energy technologies. They would continue to do so without federal subsidies, and they would do so more efficiently without the distortionary effects that federal aid creates.

https://www.downsizinggovernment.org/en … -subsidies


The woolgrower's target shall be the good thriving of his flock and its pastures, and so of himself and those whose livelihoods depend on his enterprise.
"The Woolgrower's Companion", 1906.

Offline

The following user says thank you for this post: bordsilver

#374 2017-03-14 12:53:41

aleks
Silver Stacker
From: Karl-Marx-Allee
Registered: 2010-10-14
Posts: 2,392
Trades :   27 

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

New solid state battery tech, non-flammable and three times the density of lithium ion.

https://news.utexas.edu/2017/02/28/good … technology


Only you have your best financial interest at heart, be your own guru

Offline

The following user says thank you for this post: renovator

#375 2017-03-24 15:15:26

Lovey80
Member
From: Sunshine Coast, QLD
Registered: 2011-05-08
Posts: 2,464
Trades :   29 

Re: Tesla: Wall Street scam in plain sight

BuggedOut wrote:

As far as defining what "Public Good" is, it's just too vague a concept to be able to nail down.

Instead, consider what are the essential roles of government (eg, police, military, infrastructure) and how much does that cost.  Then figure out how that amount can be taxed fairly and stay so low to the left of the "Laffer Curve" that prosperity and growth are maximized.  THAT has got to be good for the public, surely?

The way politicians think now is how much can be taxed (via tools like the Laffer Curve) and then figure out what they can spend it on.  It's ar$e about!

I actually have no problem with socialism, just as long as everyone pays the same % of tax. I think the starting point should be, where is the Tax Free Threshold? How much should someone earn tax free before they begin contributing. I think right now the figure should be about 25k to allow people to climb out of the poverty trap.

So everyone gets 25k earned before they start paying tax. Now we have to figure out THE tax rate. Not rates, Rate! Every man and his dog that earns over the TFT now pays that rate of tax on every dollar earned. Let's say for arguments sake it's 15% and it's the same for corporations.

What ever the total tax take on that is sets the budget. From there and only from there can we really determine the role of government within that budget. If Police/Military/Courts take up the lions share of that then so be it. If as shown by countries like Singapore that such moves spur huge investment and the total take balloons then they can spend all they like on their arts programs, etc etc I couldn't give a stuff.

Socialism only really gets my goat when one group are paying the lions share while another group pays next to nothing net. Right now 50% are in the negative when it comes to tax paid versus tax taken. That's wrong.

Offline

Board footer

Powered by FluxBB